Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Post Reply
ducky
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

Hi Steve,

Your signature says: "Honesty is the best policy".
You started this thread by saying that you are arguing with another person on YouTube that reads this chapter as a sign for the Massiah.
But I guess that you and your friend are the same person?
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm
ducky wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am The prophecy to Jer. about rebuilding Jerusalem should start when the temple is destroyed, right?
There is no need to assume that.
You "catch" me on a "word" but I continued my post and explained the meaning of my words fully.
I wrote "temple" because that is the symbol of the destruction of the city.
In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar *Entered Jerusalem* and destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.
So it is the same thing.

And the counting of the 7 sevens is from that time.
and the counting of the 70 years is from the time of this prophecy which was almost 20 years before the destruction.

The calculation is as I said in my previous post.
If you count from that prophecy, you still get ~70~ years to Cyrus Cylinder.

****

Just a note...
There are another "70 years of rage" in another book in the bible, which seemed to be calculated differently.
But that is just a note.
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm
ducky wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.

The Prophecy of Jer. says that Jerusalem will start to be built after 70 years of Babylon Ruling. (29:10)

Now take these 70 years minus 19 years = 51
and that is the time that is counted according to the bible.
***
And if you'll go to the Historians...
Then the temple was destroyed in -586
The Cyrus Cylinder is in -538
=48
Thanks, David. That is helpful to me to see this timeline, but that is the time from the destruction of the temple to Cyrus, not from Jeremiah's prophecy to Cyrus.
We counted here 45-55 years from the destruction.
But that specific Jer. prophecy was something about 20 years before that.
Therefore, ~49~ years from that point (and Jer. other prophecies about Jerusalem)
and ~70~ from Jer. prophecy (about the 70 years)

***
Or just go backward, if it's more comfortable for you.
Babylon will be "gone" After 70 years (As Jer. said).
And then go back ~49~ years, and that is the era of the temple-destruction.
And then go back 15-20, and you'll get the time of the exile, and the prophecy of Jer.
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm As I said before, you make an excellent point that Daniel was to understand this prophecy.
Cyrus' proclamation came shortly after this, and it was a monumental miracle.
Daniel would understand this as the beginning of the 70 weeks.

Daniel does not ask, When will Jerusalem be built? He already knows that from Jeremiah's prophecy.
Daniel prays for God to act to fulfill His promise.

The answer through Gabriel tells Daniel that there will be a word to restore Jerusalem. It will be unmistakable.
And you will know that what you have prayed has been answered.
I don't understand you.
First, you say that my point is a good point. And then you take the opposite side of what my point says.

Daniel could not get a "prophecy of date" if the starting-point of the count is unknown. It's ridiculous. It is like he didn't get any date at all.

So the "word" is either the prophecy of Jer.
or it is the specific time of Daniel and his prayer (as I said before).
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm Yes, that is what I mean.
Jesus' ministry was less than 7 years. So His ministry started in the 69th week and ended at the end of the 69th week.
Ohh, That's the new invention now?
I thought that the "Massiah" arrived as a "Massiah" at the moment he was born.
At least that is what Luke 2:11 says
[NIV] "Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord"

But if we're already twisting the "OT", why not do it also to the "NT"?
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm As I said before, the 1st 7 weeks accomplish the anointing of the holy of holies and the sealing of the vision and prophet.


Yea... The problem with that is the there was no anointing of the holy of holies or any other tool or any other man in the second temple. The oil was missing from the end of the first temple. And there was not another one that was made.
Also, in the post-biblical books, it is mentioned that the oil is missing from the second temple.
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm If it should be translated:
From the going forth of the word to return and to build Jerusalem unto messiah the prince are 7 weeks.
And [then for] 62 weeks she shall return and be built...
If the above is the meaning, then the "and 62 weeks" line should start with a waw consecutive.
It does.
Or I didn't understand you.
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm But, I would have expected the middle of v26 ‎
וְהָעִ֙יר וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ יַ֠שְׁחִית עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד הַבָּא֙
to also have started with a waw consecutive, since it comes after the messiah being cut off.
It does.
Or maybe I didn't understand you?
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm Jeremiah 25:8–14 says nothing about rebuilding Jerusalem.
Jeremiah 29:10 the people will be returned to the land. Again no mention of rebuilding Jerusalem.
Hi Karl,
Don't limit yourself to these verses alone.
The prophecy of the people's return comes in a few places.
So we already saw that Jer. talks about the return to be in 70 years.
And later, when he talks about this return he also says that the city will be built.
30:18 ונבנתה עיר על תלה
31:37 ונבנתה העיר ל-ה ממגדל חננאל עד שער הפנה (and continues)
And check chapet 33
ובנתים כבראשונה
and עוד ישמע במקום הזה... אשיב את שבות הארץ כבראשונה
and in verse 14 והקמתי את הדבר הטוב
הדבר הטוב is like in 29:10

So the prophecy is not only for the returning of the people but also about the building of the city.


And by the way, Isaiah also said about Cyrus that he'll build the city.
I know you are a very accurate man, So can I guess that you call this Isaiah prophecy a false prophecy?
(we both agree that you won't).

Anyway, Jer. does talk about the city as well.
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm Really? Seeing as the Jeremiah prophesies cited above lack any mention of rebuilding Jerusalem, how would he see Cyrus’ proclamation as a start of the 70 sevens prophecy? Especially, according to Ezra, Cyrus’ proclamation extended only to the rebuilding of the temple which included some support structures?
I also don't agree with his view

But a general note for your wondering...
as I said before, Just like Isa. call Cyrus the city builder, so does Jer.

And another general thing...
Everything in life is "rolling"

You cannot see the returning of the people to their city and don't call it a first step to restore it.
And you cannot see the building of the temple, which is the Heart of the nation and city, and don't see it as a first step of restoring the city.

But anyway, it doesn't matter.
We already saw that both Isaiah and Jeremiah talked about Cyrus (directly or indirectly) as the builder.
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm Daniel does not ask, When will Jerusalem be built? He already knows that from Jeremiah's prophecy.
Where in Jeremiah’s prophesy?
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm Daniel wants to see Jerusalem rebuilt, but he’s not promised that it will happen in his lifetime. Rather he’s told to know and understand from the command to rebuild the city itself to the destruction of the nation is 490 years (70 sevens). From recorded history, Cyrus did not command the rebuilding of the city.
Up until this point, you talked 3-4 times about how Cyrus did not command to build the city.
If that is the only argument about rejecting the link between Jer. prophecy and the "word" in Daniel, then the answer is simple as I wrote above.
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm In Daniel 9, verse 24 refers to the whole 490 years. Verse 25 mentions two time periods—one 49 years until an anointed national leader (not necessarily Jewish), one 434 years. for rebuilding the city. Verse 26a refers to Messiah being killed after the 434 years, in other words sometime from 435–440 years. Verses 26b–27 detail the destruction of the city, temple, and nation with enough detail that it fits the historic records of the Roman suppression of the Jewish revolt.
What you are trying to do is to shoot the arrow, and then run to paint the circle.
I said it before, understanding this that way means that Daniel got nothing from Gabriel.
Because if I'll tell you to count 490 from X, did I really say something?
If I don't know what is the X, so I don't really care how many years I need to count, right?

The starting point must be known.
If it wasn't known, then why the prophecy to Daniel?
Surely after this, he knew no more than any other man.

Just as Jer. got a date-prophecy which had a starting point - we expect Daniel's prophecy to have the same principle, and if not, then what is its use?
David Hunter
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

@ducky

It is the standard interpretation of Christians that the prophecy carries up until Jesus's revelation of himself at his baptism and the beginning of his ministry, not to his birth. That it, as far as I have understood it, they say that the 69th week ended with his baptism, not his birth — but I'm willing to be corrected on that.

There is division in regard to how to understand the 70th week. Some say that it continued on through the ministry of Jesus, that his death was the halfway point, and that it culminated in the death of the first Christian martyr, Stephen, about three years after Jesus's own death (and resurrection).

Others say that the 70 weeks were interrupted at that point and that the last heptad is described in the Book of Revelation and is yet to be fulfilled, marking out the seven years of trouble at the end of the age.

This is just to give you some perspective on the Christian opinions, since it seems that you've misunderstood how they read the passage.

As to how this date is reached, I can explain it to you via PM, but it's really irrelevant for the purposes of the forum.

Regards,
Jason
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
ducky
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

Hi Jason, and thanks.

I answered to the specific point.

The text says 7-sevens (or whatever) until messiah.
Therefore, the time-point should be the point when he was claimed "messiah".
According to the "NT", the messiah was "messiah" the moment he was born.
and that is the time that would fit the "until messiah"

But anyway, it doesn't really matter, because it is not the main case.
David Hunter
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:53 pm The text says 7-sevens (or whatever) until messiah.
Therefore, the time-point should be the point when he was claimed "messiah".
Interestingly, the KJV followed the Hebrew text when it was originally translated. It read:

«Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.»

There is a semi-colon after "seuen weekes" (seven weeks), indicating that they followed the Hebrew. From the going out of the order to rebuild the city until the anointed is seven weeks. Later, the KJV changed it, removing that semi-colon. Most modern translations make it seem that the text says "shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks," as if the text said that the Messiah would come after seven and sixty-two weeks (that is, sixty-nine weeks). It's very odd.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
User avatar
SteveMiller
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:53 pm
Location: Detroit, MI, USA
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by SteveMiller »

Jason Hare wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:38 am
It is the standard interpretation of Christians that the prophecy carries up until Jesus's revelation of himself at his baptism and the beginning of his ministry, not to his birth. That it, as far as I have understood it, they say that the 69th week ended with his baptism, not his birth — but I'm willing to be corrected on that.
Jason, I don't believe there is a standard Christian interpretation for it. Many believe, like you said, that the 69th week was until the start of Jesus' ministry, which began at His baptism. That is the non-dispensationalist view. That is the view of my youtube friend mentioned in the beginning of this thread.
The dispensationalist view, which I hold, is that the 69th week ended at Jesus' death and resurrection.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
User avatar
SteveMiller
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:53 pm
Location: Detroit, MI, USA
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by SteveMiller »

ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm Hi Steve,

Your signature says: "Honesty is the best policy".
You started this thread by saying that you are arguing with another person on YouTube that reads this chapter as a sign for the Massiah.
But I guess that you and your friend are the same person?
Thanks for the clarifying question.
My youtube friend believes that the person who imposes the covenant at the beginning of v27 has to be the Messiah based on the grammar. Many Christians believe that, but he was the only one that I know who says the grammar demands it.
I understand the person who imposes the covenant to be a future evil world ruler.
Both of us believe that both mentions of Messiah in this passage are The Messiah.
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm
ducky wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am The prophecy to Jer. about rebuilding Jerusalem should start when the temple is destroyed, right?
There is no need to assume that.
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm You "catch" me on a "word" but I continued my post and explained the meaning of my words fully.
I wrote "temple" because that is the symbol of the destruction of the city.
In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar *Entered Jerusalem* and destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.
So it is the same thing.
So I must have misunderstood you.
I understood that you interpreted the time of "the going forth of the word to return and to rebuild Jerusalem" as when Jeremiah spoke or wrote the prophecy. That is given as the first year of the 70 year captivity.
But instead you mean something else. Are you saying that even though the word went forth from Jeremiah in the 1st year of the captivity, the timing counts from the destruction of the temple or of the city?
I understand your math that from the destruction of the temple to Cyrus was approx 49 years.
I question how the time of "the going forth of the word to return Jerusalem" = the time when the temple or city was destroyed.
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm Just a note...
There are another "70 years of rage" in another book in the bible, which seemed to be calculated differently.
But that is just a note.
I didn't know that. Where is it in the Bible? Thanks for the note.
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm
ducky wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.

The Prophecy of Jer. says that Jerusalem will start to be built after 70 years of Babylon Ruling. (29:10)

Now take these 70 years minus 19 years = 51
and that is the time that is counted according to the bible.
***
And if you'll go to the Historians...
Then the temple was destroyed in -586
The Cyrus Cylinder is in -538
=48
Thanks, David. That is helpful to me to see this timeline, but that is the time from the destruction of the temple to Cyrus, not from Jeremiah's prophecy to Cyrus.
We counted here 45-55 years from the destruction.
But that specific Jer. prophecy was something about 20 years before that.
Therefore, ~49~ years from that point (and Jer. other prophecies about Jerusalem)
and ~70~ from Jer. prophecy (about the 70 years)

***
Or just go backward, if it's more comfortable for you.
Babylon will be "gone" After 70 years (As Jer. said).
And then go back ~49~ years, and that is the era of the temple-destruction.
And then go back 15-20, and you'll get the time of the exile, and the prophecy of Jer.
So then the start of the 70 weeks is not the going forth of the word in Jer 29?
Isn't that the one Daniel 9 is referring to?
Then which prophecy of Jeremiah is the start of the 70 weeks?
(I am very mathematical. I don't have any problem understanding your math.
This is my Dad, who just went to be with the Lord at 104 years
https://www.jmoreliving.com/2020/12/22/ ... es-at-104/)
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm As I said before, you make an excellent point that Daniel was to understand this prophecy.
Cyrus' proclamation came shortly after this, and it was a monumental miracle.
Daniel would understand this as the beginning of the 70 weeks.

Daniel does not ask, When will Jerusalem be built? He already knows that from Jeremiah's prophecy.
Daniel prays for God to act to fulfill His promise.

The answer through Gabriel tells Daniel that there will be a word to restore Jerusalem. It will be unmistakable.
And you will know that what you have prayed has been answered.
I don't understand you.
First, you say that my point is a good point. And then you take the opposite side of what my point says.
Your point is outstanding. I agree with your general conclusion, that Daniel was to understand the prophecy, and specifically what the "going forth of the word to return and rebuild" was.
But not with your specific conclusion that the word had to have already gone forth before Daniel 9.
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm Daniel could not get a "prophecy of date" if the starting-point of the count is unknown. It's ridiculous. It is like he didn't get any date at all.
Daniel understood that there would be 70 years of captivity. He knew when the 70 years started. I believe this was the 70th year.
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm Yes, that is what I mean.
Jesus' ministry was less than 7 years. So His ministry started in the 69th week and ended at the end of the 69th week.
Ohh, That's the new invention now?
I thought that the "Massiah" arrived as a "Massiah" at the moment he was born.
At least that is what Luke 2:11 says
[NIV] "Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord"
Like most things, there are different valid ways to look at it.
After His birth, Jesus was unknown to be the Messiah.
Then, at approximately 30 years old He was publicly declared to be the Messiah by John the Baptist, and Jesus began His ministry.
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm But if we're already twisting the "OT", why not do it also to the "NT"?
Have you read the NT?
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm As I said before, the 1st 7 weeks accomplish the anointing of the holy of holies and the sealing of the vision and prophet.


Yea... The problem with that is the there was no anointing of the holy of holies or any other tool or any other man in the second temple. The oil was missing from the end of the first temple. And there was not another one that was made.
Also, in the post-biblical books, it is mentioned that the oil is missing from the second temple.
I didn't know that. Thank you!
Why didn't they obey the Lord's command to anoint the vessels of the temple and the High Priest?
Maybe they just anointed it with blood? Or maybe the post Biblical books are not entirely right about that. Or I may be wrong about that.
There is Zech 4:14
"These are the 2 anointed men (lit. sons of oil) who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."
Most say the 2 anointed men are Zerubabbel, a descendant of David, and Joshua the High Priest.

In your scenario of the 70 weeks, How do the 70 weeks fulfill the anointing of the holy of holies, seal the vision and prophet, bring in the righteousness of the ages, make expiation for iniquity, etc?
ducky wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:17 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm If it should be translated:
From the going forth of the word to return and to build Jerusalem unto messiah the prince are 7 weeks.
And [then for] 62 weeks she shall return and be built...
If the above is the meaning, then the "and 62 weeks" line should start with a waw consecutive.
It does.
Or I didn't understand you.
By "waw consecutive" I mean "vav consecutive" or "vav conversive" or weqatal.
Having the sentence begin with a waw prefixed to a perfect verb is the normal bheb way to indicate something happens after something else when speaking of the future.
For example, 9:27 begins with a waw consecutive, so it happens after v26.

Thanks again for all your knowledge.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

SteveMiller wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:01 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:38 am
It is the standard interpretation of Christians that the prophecy carries up until Jesus's revelation of himself at his baptism and the beginning of his ministry, not to his birth. That it, as far as I have understood it, they say that the 69th week ended with his baptism, not his birth — but I'm willing to be corrected on that.
Jason, I don't believe there is a standard Christian interpretation for it. Many believe, like you said, that the 69th week was until the start of Jesus' ministry, which began at His baptism. That is the non-dispensationalist view. That is the view of my youtube friend mentioned in the beginning of this thread.
The dispensationalist view, which I hold, is that the 69th week ended at Jesus' death and resurrection.
I remember having read it in Matthew Henry's commentary many years ago. Thanks for the clarification.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
Kenneth Greifer
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Normally, I wouldn't comment on debates about prophecies, but I think Daniel is talking about 70 weeks of days. Just regular weeks that will happen in the future some time I assume. I don't like the idea of 70 weeks of years. I am not going to try to prove what I am saying. It is just my opinion.
Kenneth Greifer
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:16 am Normally, I wouldn't comment on debates about prophecies, but I think Daniel is talking about 70 weeks of days. Just regular weeks that will happen in the future some time I assume. I don't like the idea of 70 weeks of years. I am not going to try to prove what I am saying. It is just my opinion.
Does this mean that you see no significance in the use of שָׁבֻעִים šāḇūʿîm instead of שָׁבֻעוֹת šāḇūʿôṯ (the normal word for "weeks")?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
Kenneth Greifer
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm
Contact:

Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:29 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:16 am Normally, I wouldn't comment on debates about prophecies, but I think Daniel is talking about 70 weeks of days. Just regular weeks that will happen in the future some time I assume. I don't like the idea of 70 weeks of years. I am not going to try to prove what I am saying. It is just my opinion.
Does this mean that you see no significance in the use of שָׁבֻעִים šāḇūʿîm instead of שָׁבֻעוֹת šāḇūʿôṯ (the normal word for "weeks")?
What do you see in that spelling difference?
Kenneth Greifer
Post Reply