Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason,

What do you think of weeks in Daniel 10:2-3? It says weeks of days with the masculine plural ending.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

The normal plural form "weeks" has the -ot ending in Hebrew: שָׁבוּעוֹת. I've always been of the opinion that the use of the -im ending was a signal for the reader that this isn't talking about normal weeks, but rather "sevens," if you will.
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:34 am The normal plural form "weeks" has the -ot ending in Hebrew: שָׁבוּעוֹת. I've always been of the opinion that the use of the -im ending was a signal for the reader that this isn't talking about normal weeks, but rather "sevens," if you will.
If Daniel meant 3 weeks of days in Daniel 10:2-3, he could have used the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days. There are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say two years days for some reason. I could give the quotes, but not now. I have to go now.
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Maybe the writer mixed up Aramaic and Hebrew. I looked online at the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon and there is a masculine form of "week" and one or two feminine forms. I didn't fully understand it.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:44 am
Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:34 am The normal plural form "weeks" has the -ot ending in Hebrew: שָׁבוּעוֹת. I've always been of the opinion that the use of the -im ending was a signal for the reader that this isn't talking about normal weeks, but rather "sevens," if you will.
If Daniel meant 3 weeks of days in Daniel 10:2-3, he could have used the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days. There are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say two years days for some reason. I could give the quotes, but not now. I have to go now.
Can you please write what you mean in Hebrew? I don't know what "the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days" means. I cannot picture that in my head.
Jason Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

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Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:16 am Maybe the writer mixed up Aramaic and Hebrew. I looked online at the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon and there is a masculine form of "week" and one or two feminine forms. I didn't fully understand it.
In Hebrew, שָׁבוּעַ is masculine and takes -ot for it's plural (שָׁבוּעוֹת). It is like אָב which takes its plural as אָבוֹת. It doesn't become feminine because it takes its plural in -ot. Is that what you meant? There are tons of masculine nouns that have plurals in -ot. There are also plenty of feminine nouns that take their plural with -im. In nouns, gender is not determined by endings. When you use an adjective with "weeks," it will always be in the masculine: שָׁבוּעוֹת אֲרֻכִּים "long weeks." The same is true with נָשִׁים יָפוֹת "beautiful women" and שָׁנִים אֲרֻכּוֹת "long years."
Jason Hare
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:24 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:44 am
Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:34 am The normal plural form "weeks" has the -ot ending in Hebrew: שָׁבוּעוֹת. I've always been of the opinion that the use of the -im ending was a signal for the reader that this isn't talking about normal weeks, but rather "sevens," if you will.
If Daniel meant 3 weeks of days in Daniel 10:2-3, he could have used the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days. There are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say two years days for some reason. I could give the quotes, but not now. I have to go now.
Can you please write what you mean in Hebrew? I don't know what "the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days" means. I cannot picture that in my head.
You wrote -ot ending as feminine, so I copied your style. I meant the masculine -eem ending is used in Daniel 10:2-3 to refer to weeks of days and not "sevens of days" because he used the "eem" ending. You said "weeks" with the "eem" ending refers to "sevens" and not actual weeks of days.
I was thinking if Daniel 10:2-3 mentions weeks with "eem" ending, and it says "days" after it, he must have meant 3 weeks or sevens of days.
Also, I was thinking that if Daniel meant three weeks of days (21 days), then he should have just used the word "weeks" with the "ot" ending without adding the words "days" after it since it would be obvious by the word "weeks" with "ot" ending. Why put the "eem" ending and "days" when you can say the same thing as "weeks" with "ot" ending. You would not have to add the word "days" after it, if the word with "ot" ending just meant a normal week of days.
I think the writer mixed up Aramaic and Hebrew by using "weeks" with the "eem" ending instead of with the "ot" ending like in Hebrew in Daniel 9. I think the word "week" in Aramaic is masculine and has the "eem" or "een" ending in Aramaic. I think the writer used the Aramaic masculine (eem) ending in Hebrew for "weeks" instead of using the Hebrew ending "ot" because the person mixed up the two languages.
I noticed that if you look at the quotes using the word "years" in Daniel, you will see that Daniel 1:5 has the words "years three" in Hebrew when it should be "three years" in Hebrew. Daniel 9:2 says "seventy year" in Hebrew like it should. Daniel 6:1 in Aramaic says "years sixty and two." The number comes first in Hebrew and then years, but in Aramaic I think it is "years" and then the number, so Daniel 1:5 is mixed up Aramaic and Hebrew maybe.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Maybe some article here explains if Hebrew and Aramaic were mixed up in Daniel.
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ ... in-aramaic
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

Hi Steve,

First, I'm sorry for your loss,
I can see that your dad was a great and honorable man.

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SteveMiller wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:42 pm I question how the time of "the going forth of the word to return Jerusalem" = the time when the temple or city was destroyed.
You missed some words in your quote.
"the going forth of the word to return Jerusalem (+ and build Jerusalem)".

Jer. prophesized about the rebuilding after the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed.
So according to the quote - it is from that time of the destruction until X.
And that is 49 years.

And the prophecy about the 70 years is counted from the time of this prophecy - almost 20 years before that.

And that is the possible understanding of Daniel since we need to understand why he started to check the dates. And also, it is the time that Babylon went down, and so it fits the 70 years.

But... As I said before, in another place, (Zachariah, and also Haggai) it seems that the 70 years (of Jer.) are to be counted from the destruction of the temple until the time of Darius.
(And that is understood by many).
SteveMiller wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:42 pm Why didn't they obey the Lord's command to anoint the vessels of the temple and the High Priest?
Maybe they just anointed it with blood? Or maybe the post-Biblical books are not entirely right about that. Or I may be wrong about that.
There is Zech 4:14
"These are the 2 anointed men (lit. sons of oil) who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."
Most say the 2 anointed men are Zerubabbel, a descendant of David, and Joshua the High Priest.
There was no anointing at that time.
this thing was a core thing, and cannot be missed.
When the books talk about it - they say that there was no oil, and the priest just wore his 8 clothes, and that's it.

As for Why... good question.
There are a few answers and arguments about it.
But it is not the subject - and I didn't go deep to that.
All that is known is that the oil was never made again.
(It was made only once by Moses).

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I skipped some of the comments to try to let us focus on the specific things and avoid other stuff.

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By the way, there are more views to that and more ways to "calculate" this whole thing.

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David Hunter
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

Hi Kenneth,

What you say is basically right.

each one can see the word שבועים and see it as sevens of days, sevens of months, or sevens of years.
The mix of "ot" and "eem" is nothing.

it is understood as "years" because of the context.
Since we saw in verse 2 that Daniel counts the Years, and also, the verse continues to talk about the 70 Years of Jeremiah's prophecy...
So it seems that when Gabriel talks about the "70" (as 70X70), it keeps the number in the same manner - which is "years".
David Hunter
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