Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

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Jason Hare
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:07 pm The mix of "ot" and "eem" is nothing.
Do you know of שבועים used somewhere else? Doesn't it seem odd to you? I take it as an indication that it's not speaking about regular weeks.
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

ducky wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:07 pm Hi Kenneth,

What you say is basically right.

each one can see the word שבועים and see it as sevens of days, sevens of months, or sevens of years.
The mix of "ot" and "eem" is nothing.

it is understood as "years" because of the context.
Since we saw in verse 2 that Daniel counts the Years, and also, the verse continues to talk about the 70 Years of Jeremiah's prophecy...
So it seems that when Gabriel talks about the "70" (as 70X70), it keeps the number in the same manner - which is "years".
David,
It is possible that the prophecy is about 70 weeks of years because years are mentioned about the exile, but it is also possible that it is about 70 weeks of days because 70 is mentioned. 70 weeks is similar to 70 years because of the 70, not just because they are both about years. You are just assuming that it is still about years because you think it is about weeks of years or sevens of years or whatever people say.
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

But the context does talk about the 70 as 70 years.
This is what Daniel looked at, and this is when Gabriel came to him.
And when Gabriel told him about the "70" we need to assume that they are "talking in the same language" and there is not a "Switch" in the "way of thinking".

It is hard to see it as if suddenly there was a strange switch like that.

Also, later in this book, when the word שבועים comes to represent circles of seven says - it is written ימים=days in a clear way (and it happens twice).


*
Also, the last part talks about 1-seven (week) and a half of a week.
So do you think that it talks about 7 days - and 3.5 days?
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by kwrandolph »

In this response, I’m trying to limit myself to linguistic questions and avoid any religious overtones.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm Cyrus' proclamation came shortly after this, and it was a monumental miracle.
Daniel would understand this as the beginning of the 70 weeks.
Really? Seeing as the Jeremiah prophesies cited above lack any mention of rebuilding Jerusalem, how would he see Cyrus’ proclamation as a start of the 70 sevens prophesy? Especially, according to Ezra, Cyrus’ proclamation extended only to the rebuilding of the temple which included some support structures?
I do not follow you here, Karl.
Cyrus' proclamation included the building of Jerusalem.
Do you have any quotations of Cyrus’ command that includes the building of Jerusalem? The only quotes of Cyrus’ command that I found are in Ezra 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 36:23 and neither includes the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

A second problem I have is with the dates. According to several sources on the web, Cyrus lived from about 590–530 BC. If the 490 years of the prophesy started during the life of Cyrus, then the 490 years would have ended no later than about 40 BC, with the final seven years a time of war including the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. I don’t find such a war in history.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm The execution of that part of his proclamation was slow, but Daniel 9:25 says "from the going forth of the word", not from the execution of it.
That still leaves the problems of the quotations and dates.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm When Gabriel tells Daniel that there will be a word coming to return and to restore Jerusalem, Daniel would recognize Cyrus' miraculous decree as that word.
Aren’t you jumping to conclusions here?
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm
Daniel does not ask, When will Jerusalem be built? He already knows that from Jeremiah's prophecy.
Where in Jeremiah’s prophesy?
Daniel says in 9:2 that he understood from Jeremiah's prophesy the time is now to return to Jerusalem.
That still doesn’t say that he assumed that Jerusalem would be rebuilt at that time.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm I think it is very strong that Daniel was to understand what the word to return and to rebuild Jerusalem would be.
That word would be in his lifetime.
According to the Isaiah, Cyrus did command the rebuilding of the city. That trumps any recorded history for you and me.
No it doesn’t, especially not the history recorded in Ezra, Nehemiah and 2 Chronicles.

Look carefully at the prophesy in Isaiah, the verbs are Yiqtol. One of the uses of the Yiqtol conjugation is the subjunctive. So while he may have said that Jerusalem should be built, Cyrus’ actual command as recorded in Ezra 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 36:23 mentions only the temple.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm Jesus' ministry was less than 7 years. So His ministry started in the 69th week and ended at the end of the 69th week.
The text doesn’t say that. Rather it says that after the 62 sevens, in other words, during the 63rd seven, that Messiah would be killed (cut off). Or if you say 7 + 62 = 69, then after the 69th seven, during the 70th seven is when Messiah would be cut off. אחר when preceding an event refers to afterwards, following.
I don't think that is always true for a case like this. אחר an event would mean "after that event", yes. But אחר a time unit could include in the last part of that time unit. In the NT, Jesus said he would rise after 3 days, and also rise on the 3rd day. So "after 3 days" can mean "on the 3rd day" at least in Greek and English.
There are problems with this argument. 1) It’s outside Tanakh. 2) We’re dealing with different languages. 3) Even in Greek, the “after” is not clear. Rather “the third day” fits Greek usage.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm When, for example, Gen 7:10 says "after 7 days", it doesn't necessarily mean on the 8th day, but may mean on the 7th day.
Genesis 7:10 doesn’t say “after seven days”. ויהי לשבעת הימים
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm I haven’t given an interpretation of the passage, other than noting that the last verse and a half fit the description of the Roman suppression of the Jewish revolt. I see nothing in the passage that indicates that the 490 years are anything other than one unit not to be split. I see nothing in the passage that connects it with Cyrus or Daniel. I see nothing in the passage that the two time periods in verse 25 must be consecutive. Those are my conclusions based on linguistic analysis.
This passage is all about 70 weeks. And then inside the prophesy we have 7 and 62 and 1 weeks, which added together = 70.
The default position should be that the 3 numbers of weeks given do not overlap, but add up to the 70 weeks.
With no linguistic basis for this default position, why defend it? The ו merely indicates that we’re dealing with another, separate time period.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm If you are going to make any of these 3 divisions concurrent or overlap, the burden of proof is on you to say why the alternative is impossible.
The 70 sevens (490 years) is concurrent with all three of the subdivisions.

The 70 sevens and the seven sevens are concurrent also with the start date, they start at the same time.

The final seven is concurrent with the end of the 70 sevens.

The question remains: is the 62 sevens duration concurrent to the beginning of the 70 sevens or sequential to the seven sevens? If we take the end of the 70 sevens at the end of the Jewish Revolt at Masada, then the beginning of the 70 sevens correlates with the command given to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem. The history recorded in Nehemiah claims that within a few months of receiving the order to rebuild Jerusalem, he had rebuilt the walls of the city and was in the process of repopulating it. This action on Nehemiah’s part indicates that the fulfillment of the 62 sevens, at least its beginning, started immediately after the giving of the word to rebuild Jerusalem. Therefore it’s concurrent with the seven sevens to be counted before the coming of the anointed national leader.

That the 62 sevens starts with a ו doesn’t necessarily indicate that it follows the seven sevens mentioned second. The ו can just as well merely indicate another span of time.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm You could say the same to me about putting a gap between the 69th and 70th week.

Thanks Karl. As always, I learn a lot from you.
Concerning the use of the word “anointed” משיח, it is used of several people, including national leaders like King Saul, Cyrus, religious leaders like the priests, and one called simply משיח. The one who is called anointed may not even be Jewish nor know the Lord, as in the case of Cyrus. נגיד implies a national, political leader. So the משיח נגיד implies a political, national leader anointed by God. I would suggest that the political, national leader in verse 25 was Alexander the Great, who was born 49 years after Nehemiah rebuilt Jerusalem’s walls.

Karl W. Randolph.
ducky
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

Hi Jason,

I say that it doesn't matter because in this book there is no שבועות at all.
And even when it talks about seven days, it still uses שבועים
so it is hard to claim that because you have no direct thing to compare to.

In a very simple look. it seems to me that it is just an alternative form that was used at that time
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

ducky wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:36 pm But the context does talk about the 70 as 70 years.
This is what Daniel looked at, and this is when Gabriel came to him.
And when Gabriel told him about the "70" we need to assume that they are "talking in the same language" and there is not a "Switch" in the "way of thinking".

It is hard to see it as if suddenly there was a strange switch like that.

Also, later in this book, when the word שבועים comes to represent circles of seven says - it is written ימים=days in a clear way (and it happens twice).


*
Also, the last part talks about 1-seven (week) and a half of a week.
So do you think that it talks about 7 days - and 3.5 days?
You mentioned Daniel 10:2-3 about "the 3 weeks (of) days", and you seem to suggest that "days" is there to show that it does not refer to "weeks of years." From my research, the word "days" there could mean that he didn't eat certain food for three weeks during the daytime or it could mean "annually." The word "days" is used to mean "annually" in some quotes like 1 Samuel 2:19 and maybe Judges 17:10. Usually, it says "from days to days" quotes like 1 Samuel 1:3. Some quotes say "two years (of) days" like Genesis 41:1 and 2 Samuel 13:23.

Daniel 10:2 דניאל
10:2בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם אֲנִי דָנִיֵּאל הָיִיתִי מִתְאַבֵּל שְׁלֹשָׁה שָׁבֻעִים יָמִים׃

1 Samuel 2:19 שמואל א
2:19וּמְעִיל קָטֹן תַּעֲשֶׂה־לּוֹ אִמּוֹ וְהַעַלְתָה לוֹ מִיָּמִים יָמִימָה בַּעֲלוֹתָהּ אֶת־אִישָׁהּ לִזְבֹּחַ אֶת־זֶבַח הַיָּמִים׃

Judges 17:10 שופטים
17:10וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ מִיכָה שְׁבָה עִמָּדִי וֶהְיֵה־לִי לְאָב וּלְכֹהֵן וְאָנֹכִי אֶתֶּן־לְךָ עֲשֶׂרֶת כֶּסֶף לַיָּמִים וְעֵרֶךְ בְּגָדִים וּמִחְיָתֶךָ וַיֵּלֶךְ הַלֵּוִי׃

2 Samuel 13:23 שמואל ב
13:23וַיְהִי לִשְׁנָתַיִם יָמִים וַיִּהְיוּ גֹזְזִים לְאַבְשָׁלוֹם בְּבַעַל חָצוֹר אֲשֶׁר עִם־אֶפְרָיִם וַיִּקְרָא אַבְשָׁלוֹם לְכָל־בְּנֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ׃

1 Samuel 1:3 שמואל א
1:3וְעָלָה הָאִישׁ הַהוּא מֵעִירוֹ מִיָּמִים יָמִימָה לְהִשְׁתַּחֲוֺת וְלִזְבֹּחַ לַיהוָה צְבָאוֹת בְּשִׁלֹה וְשָׁם שְׁנֵי בְנֵי־עֵלִי חָפְנִי וּפִנְחָס כֹּהֲנִים

Genesis 41:1 בראשית
41:1וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ שְׁנָתַיִם יָמִים וּפַרְעֹה חֹלֵם וְהִנֵּה עֹמֵד עַל־הַיְאֹר׃

Also, I guess the last week would be seven days. Some people say the word "weeks' with "eem" at the end could really mean "two weeks" dual ending, but I doubt that.
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SteveMiller
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by SteveMiller »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:44 am If Daniel meant 3 weeks of days in Daniel 10:2-3, he could have used the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days. There are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say two years days for some reason. I could give the quotes, but not now. I have to go now.
That is an interesting question, Kenneth.
Your post made me think:
1) The use of sevens of days in Dan 10 may be because the 3 sevens of days in Dan 10 were not Sunday - Saturday weeks, but had a different starting point. That seems to be the case in Lev 12:5 where dual plural form is used. Lev 12:5 is the only other place I know where weeks are not Sunday-Saturday.

2) The Angel Gabriel used the unusual word shavuim in Dan 9.
Then Daniel used it in his description of his semi-fast in Dan 10.
I would think that Daniel's use of shavuim in ch 10 means that he was praying regarding the 70 shavuim revealed by Gabriel in the previous chapter. So then the angel's long message in chs 11-12 gives details of the 70 sevens in ch 9.
I don't know how the 2 might relate.
Sincerely yours,
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

Hi Kenneth,

Let's start from the beginning.

שבועים/שבועות/שבוע is a passive participle is if it was said "sevened" (something to be doubled by seven).

when you look at the word in a "dry" way, you can say that a שבוע can mean seven years, seven months, seven days, of seven minutes.
It is all about the context.

You read Daniel and see it as seven says.
But why?
you don't really have a reason except for the fact that the שבוע is common and well known as seven days.

But it is all about the context.
So for example, the word שבוע (spelled שבע) in Genesis is actually seven years.
And how do we know this is seven years?
because of the context.

And in other places, it is seven days - again, because of the context.

When you read Daniel and see that the context is in a matter of years, and then comes the word שבוע - why it is so hard to assume that the "sevened" keeps the same mindset of the matter in the context - which is "years".
David Hunter
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:20 pm
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:44 am If Daniel meant 3 weeks of days in Daniel 10:2-3, he could have used the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days. There are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say two years days for some reason. I could give the quotes, but not now. I have to go now.
That is an interesting question, Kenneth.
Your post made me think:
1) The use of sevens of days in Dan 10 may be because the 3 sevens of days in Dan 10 were not Sunday - Saturday weeks, but had a different starting point. That seems to be the case in Lev 12:5 where dual plural form is used. Lev 12:5 is the only other place I know where weeks are not Sunday-Saturday.

2) The Angel Gabriel used the unusual word shavuim in Dan 9.
Then Daniel used it in his description of his semi-fast in Dan 10.
I would think that Daniel's use of shavuim in ch 10 means that he was praying regarding the 70 shavuim revealed by Gabriel in the previous chapter. So then the angel's long message in chs 11-12 gives details of the 70 sevens in ch 9.
I don't know how the 2 might relate.
Steve,
First of all, I am sorry to hear about your father dying. I am amazed that he lived to 104 and taught math for 80 years, if I read the information correctly. He sounds like he was a very fascinating person.
Your argument is very creative. All I can think of is if a Jewish person was a slave for six years, did it have to start at the first month of the year, and did the rule have a different form of the word "year" to show that it was not starting in the first month? Your argument is surprising, but I don't think Daniel ate a certain way for three weeks starting on the wrong day, so he used a different word for "weeks", but who knows for sure?
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

David,
I am guessing you are saying the word "week" in Genesis means 7 years referring to how long Jacob worked for his wife. I think that quote means he finished the seven days of celebrating his marriage to her sister and not seven years. I am too busy to look up the quote number right now, but I am guessing what you are talking about because you didn't give a quote either.
Kenneth Greifer
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