SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
I'm trying to work out your theory based upon what you've shared:
Word to Nehemiah - start of 490 years - year 0 - 414 BC
Alexander the Great, the messiah prince - year 49 - 365 BC
Messiah cut off - after 62nd week, so year 434 - 18 - 21 AD
7 weeks not called out in divisions - year 483 67 AD
Masada - year 490 - 73 AD
Is this your theory?
Is that significantly different than what you shared before, like more than a year ago?
I probably misunderstood it back then.
This is not just my theory, rather it’s how I read and understand the text. However, the dates are ±10 years. No, it’s not different from what I shared before. Rather, what I said then is that I don’t trust the dates given by modern historians, which I just repeated.
After all, the Jewish revolt could have been 70–77 AD, for all we know.
What follows are the reasons why I understand this passage this way.
To start out, looking at the beginning of verse 27, that it starts with והגביר indicates that it is a continuation of verse 26b. The antecedent of והגביר is עם נגיד הבא. That means that verses 26b and 27 are a unit, describing the same event.
I also noticed על כנף שקוצים משמם referring to idols with wings causing desolation—the Roman soldiers at the time of the Jewish revolt were told that their battle standards were gods to be worshipped—שקוץ is used at times as a synonym of idol. The Roman battle standards at the time of the Jewish revolt were eagles with wings.
Another clue that we deal with the same event—the suppression of the Jewish revolt—is that both the general who started the Roman action, and the one who finished it, later became emperor. Thus fulfilling the coming national leader.
The war lasted seven years, half-way through sacrifices and offerings were caused to stop and that by the destruction of the temple.
With all the parallels between the Jewish revolt and the last verse and a half of Daniel’s 70 sevens, I then concluded that the prophesy ended here. That means the beginning was 490 years earlier. And the rest falls into place. The only fly in the ointment is that secular historians don’t agree on the dates, but then the evidence is that they may be off.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm
Do you have any quotations of Cyrus’ command that includes the building of Jerusalem? The only quotes of Cyrus’ command that I found are in Ezra 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 36:23 and neither includes the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
The one I quoted before:
Isaiah 44:28 that saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and he shall perform all my pleasure;
even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Verse 28:
האמר לכורש רעי וכל חפצי ישלם ולאמר לירושלם תבנה והיכל תוסד
Who is the one speaking for לאמר? Is that not God who is speaking, and not Cyrus? How is the translation you quoted not inaccurate, “translating” ו as “even”?
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm
A second problem I have is with the dates. According to several sources on the web, Cyrus lived from about 590–530 BC. If the 490 years of the prophesy started during the life of Cyrus, then the 490 years would have ended no later than about 40 BC, with the final seven years a time of war including the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. I don’t find such a war in history.
Neither you nor I trust the secular dates for the pre Roman time frame. I think the secular dates are off for Cyrus.
For your theory to hold, you’ll have to adjust the dates for Cyrus by about 3/4 of a century. Do you have evidence other than your theory for that great a change in dates?
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm
Aren’t you jumping to conclusions here?
Why would that not be a valid conclusion?
There’s no evidence that Cyrus ever made such a proclamation.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
Would not Daniel know about Cyrus' proclamation?
Of course he would, seeing that he was working in the King’s service. Yet Daniel never indicated that Cyrus’ proclamation included rebuilding Jerusalem. Nor did anyone else.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
Would Daniel not see that as the fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70 years concerning which Daniel prayed in Daniel chapter 9?
Notice Daniel made two mistakes: 1) he thought the ascent of Darius to the throne signaled the end of the 70 years, but we see that the 70 years actually ended when Cyrus replaced Darius, and 2) he assumed that the end of the 70 years would lead to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, when Jeremiah’s prophecy made no such claim.
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
If I was Daniel I would see that as the word to return and to build Jerusalem.
Even though the rebuilding of Jerusalem wasn’t included in the royal decree?
SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
And what do you do with Gabriel's word to Daniel to "know and understand"? What would he know and understand?
For him to know and understand the prophecy given to him. Other than the word “sevens”, the rest of the prophecy is clear. It just doesn’t include all details.
While getting ready to post this message, I noticed that I had come back to the original question of what is the antecedent for והגביר because all the rest that I wrote is based on that question.
Karl W. Randolph.