Exodus 10:3 until when
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
-
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm
Exodus 10:3 until when
Exodus 10:3 שמות
10:3וַיָּבֹ֨א מֹשֶׁ֣ה וְאַהֲרֹן֮ אֶל־פַּרְעֹה֒ וַיֹּאמְר֣וּ אֵלָ֗יו כֹּֽה־אָמַ֤ר יְהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָֽעִבְרִ֔ים עַד־מָתַ֣י מֵאַ֔נְתָּ לֵעָנֹ֖ת מִפָּנָ֑י שַׁלַּ֥ח עַמִּ֖י וְיַֽעַבְדֻֽנִי׃
The Literal Standard Version (Bible hub)
3And Moses comes in—Aaron also—to Pharaoh, and they say to him, “Thus said YHWH, God of the Hebrews: Until when have you refused to be humbled at My presence? Send My people away, and they serve Me, 4for if you are refusing to send My people away, behold, tomorrow I am bringing in the locust into your border,
Usually, "until when" is used with present or future tense verbs (I know you don't call them that), but here it is used with a past tense verb. Does it make sense this way? It sounds ok, but a little funny to me.
10:3וַיָּבֹ֨א מֹשֶׁ֣ה וְאַהֲרֹן֮ אֶל־פַּרְעֹה֒ וַיֹּאמְר֣וּ אֵלָ֗יו כֹּֽה־אָמַ֤ר יְהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָֽעִבְרִ֔ים עַד־מָתַ֣י מֵאַ֔נְתָּ לֵעָנֹ֖ת מִפָּנָ֑י שַׁלַּ֥ח עַמִּ֖י וְיַֽעַבְדֻֽנִי׃
The Literal Standard Version (Bible hub)
3And Moses comes in—Aaron also—to Pharaoh, and they say to him, “Thus said YHWH, God of the Hebrews: Until when have you refused to be humbled at My presence? Send My people away, and they serve Me, 4for if you are refusing to send My people away, behold, tomorrow I am bringing in the locust into your border,
Usually, "until when" is used with present or future tense verbs (I know you don't call them that), but here it is used with a past tense verb. Does it make sense this way? It sounds ok, but a little funny to me.
Kenneth Greifer
-
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
I also found "how long" written with a different word "when" used with the past tense in Exodus 16:28 and Habakkuk 1:2. I found "until when" or "how long" with the same words as Exodus 10:3 in Psalm 80:5.
Psalms 80:5 תהלים
80:5יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֣ים צְבָא֑וֹת עַד־מָתַ֥י עָ֝שַׁ֗נְתָּ בִּתְפִלַּ֥ת עַמֶּֽךָ
Exodus 16:28 שמות
16:28וַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֑ה עַד־אָ֙נָה֙ מֵֽאַנְתֶּ֔ם לִשְׁמֹ֥ר מִצְוֺתַ֖י וְתוֹרֹתָֽי׃
Habakkuk 1:2 חבקוק
1:2עַד־אָ֧נָה יְהוָ֛ה שִׁוַּ֖עְתִּי וְלֹ֣א תִשְׁמָ֑ע אֶזְעַ֥ק אֵלֶ֛יךָ חָמָ֖ס וְלֹ֥א תוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
I looked up "how long" and not "until when", so maybe they mean "how long" and "until when."
Psalms 80:5 תהלים
80:5יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֣ים צְבָא֑וֹת עַד־מָתַ֥י עָ֝שַׁ֗נְתָּ בִּתְפִלַּ֥ת עַמֶּֽךָ
Exodus 16:28 שמות
16:28וַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֑ה עַד־אָ֙נָה֙ מֵֽאַנְתֶּ֔ם לִשְׁמֹ֥ר מִצְוֺתַ֖י וְתוֹרֹתָֽי׃
Habakkuk 1:2 חבקוק
1:2עַד־אָ֧נָה יְהוָ֛ה שִׁוַּ֖עְתִּי וְלֹ֣א תִשְׁמָ֑ע אֶזְעַ֥ק אֵלֶ֛יךָ חָמָ֖ס וְלֹ֥א תוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
I looked up "how long" and not "until when", so maybe they mean "how long" and "until when."
Kenneth Greifer
-
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
I also found "how long" written with a different word "when" used with the past tense in Exodus 16:28 and Habakkuk 1:2. I found "until when" or "how long" with the same words as Exodus 10:3 in Psalm 80:5.
Psalms 80:5 תהלים
80:5יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֣ים צְבָא֑וֹת עַד־מָתַ֥י עָ֝שַׁ֗נְתָּ בִּתְפִלַּ֥ת עַמֶּֽךָ
Psalms 80:6 תהלים
80:6הֶ֭אֱכַלְתָּם לֶ֣חֶם דִּמְעָ֑ה וַ֝תַּשְׁקֵ֗מוֹ בִּדְמָע֥וֹת שָׁלִֽישׁ׃
I think Psalm 80:5-6 might be a comment and not a question "until when...?", but "Until when You burned (gave off smoke)...You caused them to eat bread of tears..."
Psalms 80:5 תהלים
80:5יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֣ים צְבָא֑וֹת עַד־מָתַ֥י עָ֝שַׁ֗נְתָּ בִּתְפִלַּ֥ת עַמֶּֽךָ
Psalms 80:6 תהלים
80:6הֶ֭אֱכַלְתָּם לֶ֣חֶם דִּמְעָ֑ה וַ֝תַּשְׁקֵ֗מוֹ בִּדְמָע֥וֹת שָׁלִֽישׁ׃
I think Psalm 80:5-6 might be a comment and not a question "until when...?", but "Until when You burned (gave off smoke)...You caused them to eat bread of tears..."
Kenneth Greifer
-
- Posts: 1545
- Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
Unlike modern Israeli Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew had no tenses. The Qatal verbs were used not only for past events, but also for future events and make up the majority of present events preserved in conversations in Tanakh. Likewise the Yiqtol verbs were used for past, present and future events. Therefore it’s incorrect to say that “until when” is used here with a “past tense verb”, because here it’s used with a Qatal verb referring to a future eventKenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:15 am Exodus 10:3 שמות
10:3וַיָּבֹ֨א מֹשֶׁ֣ה וְאַהֲרֹן֮ אֶל־פַּרְעֹה֒ וַיֹּאמְר֣וּ אֵלָ֗יו כֹּֽה־אָמַ֤ר יְהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָֽעִבְרִ֔ים עַד־מָתַ֣י מֵאַ֔נְתָּ לֵעָנֹ֖ת מִפָּנָ֑י שַׁלַּ֥ח עַמִּ֖י וְיַֽעַבְדֻֽנִי׃
Usually, "until when" is used with present or future tense verbs (I know you don't call them that), but here it is used with a past tense verb. Does it make sense this way? It sounds ok, but a little funny to me.
Karl W. Randolph.
-
- Posts: 1783
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
Karl writes
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
There are no inherent tense markings in Hebrew, not in the Biblical and not in the presently spoken language. The Hebrew verb is but a root augmented by personal pronouns. Spoken Hebrew ("modern Israeli Hebrew") uses the same verbal forms as does biblical Hebrew, except, that being the practical language of the home, the school, the store, and the bank, its speakers are careful to distinguish between what they did and what they plan yet to do.Unlike modern Israeli Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew had no tenses.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
- Jason Hare
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
- Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
- Contact:
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
A modern Hebrew structure:
לפני יותר מחודש הוא אמר לי שהוא יבוא ליום ההולדת שלי, אבל מסתבר שהוא לא בא.
More than a month ago he told me that he would come to my birthday, but it turns out that he isn't coming. (or, didn't come)
It's obvious that אמר here means "he said/told." יבוא would normally be the "future," but it clearly isn't the future in this sentence, since my birthday is apparently the day on which I'm making this report. Rather, יבוא has its tense relative to where it is in my recounting of the event. It is relative to אמר "he said." When he told me, the birthday was still in the future. When I'm recounting it, it isn't in the future. The tense is relative to the "deictic center," as they say.
This is the case in both biblical and modern Hebrew. The form of the verb is dependent on what is being spoken of. It doesn't center itself on the time of the audience's hearing the communication.
לפני יותר מחודש הוא אמר לי שהוא יבוא ליום ההולדת שלי, אבל מסתבר שהוא לא בא.
More than a month ago he told me that he would come to my birthday, but it turns out that he isn't coming. (or, didn't come)
It's obvious that אמר here means "he said/told." יבוא would normally be the "future," but it clearly isn't the future in this sentence, since my birthday is apparently the day on which I'm making this report. Rather, יבוא has its tense relative to where it is in my recounting of the event. It is relative to אמר "he said." When he told me, the birthday was still in the future. When I'm recounting it, it isn't in the future. The tense is relative to the "deictic center," as they say.
This is the case in both biblical and modern Hebrew. The form of the verb is dependent on what is being spoken of. It doesn't center itself on the time of the audience's hearing the communication.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
-
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
- Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
In other words, the time relation of the verb form is determined by context, not by any marker in the verb form itself. Right?
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני
Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/
כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
דואיין דוליני
Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/
כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
- Jason Hare
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
- Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
- Contact:
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
Precisely. This is the case in modern Hebrew to the same extent as it is the case in biblical Hebrew. It doesn't mean that the language doesn't exhibit tense. It means that the verb form doesn't indicate simple past and future—but it can be figured out from the context.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
-
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2020 5:16 pm
- Location: Cincinnati, OH
- Contact:
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
Well, except for the wayyiqtol form. But I know Karl will disagree with me on this.
90% of the time, it's a Past Narrative form. That's a pretty solid percentage.
Jonathan Beck
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
-
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
- Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA
Re: Exodus 10:3 until when
It's okay about Karl. I agree about the wayyiqtol.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני
Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/
כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
דואיין דוליני
Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/
כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים