Isaiah 56:10 construct question

[Kenneth Greifer]

Jason,
There is grammar and then there is hard grammar involving a lot of technical details and hard words. The introductory books like "The First Hebrew Primer for Adults" do not use the kinds of words that you find in some of these books. It is hard to explain what I mean because a lot of people here are highly educated and don't notice these words.
Here is an example from page 116 of the Waltke book:

"With temporal words a distributive repetition singles out the members diachronically."
Also, "A singular noun may be repeated syndetically to form a phrase indicating diversity."

You don't find sentences like these in every book, but this is what I am talking about when I say "hard grammar."

I have a feeling that if this writer knew any easy words and had the ability to explain the same things with easier words, even average people could probably understand what the writer was saying, but it can't happen. No one who understands grammar at a very high level seems interested in "dumbing down" their words so that average people can actually learn that subject. I think some people believe that you have to use "hard" words to explain every thing or somehow the subject can't be explained. I think most subjects can be explained with easier words and still get the point across. I don't know if I could understand these two sentences on page 116 because I did not google every word to find out what the sentences say.

[Jason Hare]

In many instances, if the words are "dumbed down," they become imprecise and lose their focus and clarity. Meaning, once imprecise terminology is used, someone who is untrained may think that they captured the idea, but often they didn't really - and the meaning is lost.

What word would you replace "temporal" with? "Time-related"? "Having to do with time"? Do you make a distinction between "time" and "tense"? You have to use precise words to give precise meaning. It's our job as students of language to learn those meanings and do our best to use them properly.

[Chris Watts]

Jason,
There is grammar and then there is hard grammar involving a lot of technical details and hard words.
Here is an example from page 116 of the Waltke book:

"With temporal words a distributive repetition singles out the members diachronically."
Also, "A singular noun may be repeated syndetically to form a phrase indicating diversity."

You don't find sentences like these in every book, but this is what I am talking about when I say "hard grammar."

Kenneth, You really do not need this kind of intellectually superior Verbosity. With terms like ths I would also throw it away. There are Grammar books written for Grammarians who specialize in analytical linguistics and language syntax, and then there are the rest of us normal people, who, just wish to learn the language. There are enough intermediate books that treat the grammar as it supposed to be learned that will fulfill your desire. I mentioned earlier several very friendly books that give plenty of examples with regard to cementing grammatical principles. But I also have a reference Grammar by Van de Merwe, Naude and Kroeze. It they have not covered some grammatical principle, then I would presume it does not exist or is extremely rare.

Chris watts

[kwrandolph]

It looks as if this discussion is losing the forest for the trees, or the main reason for learning grammar in the first place.

Why learn a language, if not to communicate? How much grammar does one need to know in order to communicate? Or is your purpose to wow others with your erudition concerning your knowledge of grammar without really learning Biblicaal Hebrew?

When I study a modern language, I first learn its alphabet if it differs from English. Then I learn the basics of grammar. The biggest challenge is learning vocabulary, not grammar. A lot can be communicated without knowing the intricacies of grammar.

For example, to give a hypothetical case, how would I learn Japanese? Step one would be to learn Hiragana and Katakana, the two alphabets. Then I’d learn the basic sentence structure of subject, object then verb, adjectives and adverbs precede the words they modify, and a few other rules, then start working with communication. I’ll keep picking up more and more tidbits of grammar as I go along.

There’s a lot that can be understood without knowing all the intricacies of grammar.

I took a two semester class in Hebrew in college, then largely neglected it for almost two years, then started reading in Genesis reading all of Tanakh. As I read Tanakh, I came the realization that the grammar I had studied with Weingreen’s textbook in formal class in many ways didn’t match what I was reading in Tanakh. Some things are the same, such as his treatment of nouns and adjectives. But the reasons for the verbal conjugations don’t fit at all. I would not have noticed this problem had I not just read Tanakh over and over again with an emphasis on understanding the communication.

I hadn’t studied linguistics yet, didn’t know TAM, but it was clear to me that Biblical Hebrew used neither T nor A (tens nor aspect, as described by SIL). So I concentrated on learning vocabulary while reading the text, letting the text to flow over me in the way a child learns his native tongue. I memorized passages. It got to the point that my first reaction to the “Josiah Stone” forgery was that the text just didn’t “feel right”, like a foreign accent. (I now refuse to look at it again, as I found that studying it was affecting my feeling for Biblical Hebrew.)

The point I’m getting at is that one won’t learn Biblical Hebrew studying grammars ad nauseam, rather one needs to read the text over and over again, letting it sink in. Read it with the purpose of understanding its message. You’ll make mistakes, everyone does, but as you continue reading, the mistakes will become fewer.

My purpose for learning Hebrew is to learn what God wants to communicate to us in his Word, the Bible. I also learned koiné Greek to read the New Testament. Greek is not a challenge, as it’s so well known that there’s mainly one word that moderns get wrong, namely μυστεριον, which in ancient times has nearly the opposite meaning from its modern descendent. (Then it meant “teaching” or “doctrine”.) It wasn’t a challenge because almost everything fits what I learned in class.

Put aside your grammars, and spend that time instead just reading Tanakh, reading for understanding. That’s how you’ll learn Biblical Hebrew.

[talmid56]

I agree that once you learn the basics of Hebrew grammar, you should spend most of your time reading Hebrew. Attempt to understand it on its own terms, in context. Make reasonable guesses based on the sentence structure and vocabulary choices of your Hebrew author. Then, if something puzzles you, feel free to consult grammars that go beyond the basics. Kenneth, I don't think you'll find a grammar that doesn't have some technical terms or jargon. Every discipline has such terms. If it is something you're interested in knowing, invest the time to train yourself on the ones that pertain to your search. We can help you here, if you really want to know and get stuck. There are also other resources, like the UnfoldingWord online BH grammar I mentioned. Although it interacts with modern linguistics, it seems to do a good job of explaining the terms it uses. And, it has plenty of examples taken from the Hebrew Bible, along with translations of the verses. There is also the SIL online glossary of linguistic terms. It is for linguistics in general, but you will find there grammar terms that are also used in studying Hebrew.

At the same time, I don't suggest that you spend the bulk of your time with Hebrew on digging into the more arcane or rarely occuring grammar items. If you deal with ones that impede your understanding and enjoyment of the Bible texts you want to learn from, that will suffice.

[Jason Hare]

I agree that once you learn the basics of Hebrew grammar, you should spend most of your time reading Hebrew.

In Kutz and Josberger's grammar (which I recommend very strongly), they use an adapted reader that gets students into reading very quickly. Even before they learn much grammar at all, they are reading the story of Joseph in a simplified form. It's essential that students read as early and as much as possible. We all seem to agree on that.

Where we disagree is with the idea of putting grammars aside. Students must have grammar presented explicitly to make sense of what is going on. For this reason, I agree with your "once you learn the basics," but I might adjust that to "while you are learning the basics." That is, as you learn principles of grammar and usage, you should be reading to encounter more and more language. Always read at a level a bit beyond where you are, but focus on reading comprehension more than translation.

Attempt to understand it on its own terms, in context. Make reasonable guesses based on the sentence structure and vocabulary choices of your Hebrew author. Then, if something puzzles you, feel free to consult grammars that go beyond the basics.

Absolutely. The problem would be, though, that if he just skips out on basic grammar altogether, he won't know where or what to consult. How can he check Waltke & O'Connor if he doesn't know what an infinitive absolute is? Does he need to read the whole book to try to find help on one grammatical point? If he didn't study the grammar, he will be completely lost.

Kenneth, I don't think you'll find a grammar that doesn't have some technical terms or jargon. Every discipline has such terms.

Right. Can you imagine someone wanting to learn geometry but complaining that they don't know what a trapezoid is or that they don't want to learn new terminology? In order to make comparisons between languages and to label what we see happening, we need words. We need terms. We need labels. I don't see what the problem with that is.

If it is something you're interested in knowing, invest the time to train yourself on the ones that pertain to your search.

Nail on the head. If you're interested in learning it, take the time to train yourself — or bring in someone who can train you.

We can help you here, if you really want to know and get stuck.

Yep.

At the same time, I don't suggest that you spend the bulk of your time with Hebrew on digging into the more arcane or rarely occuring grammar items. If you deal with ones that impede your understanding and enjoyment of the Bible texts you want to learn from, that will suffice.

I think you meant the opposite of your last sentence. If you deal with ones that increase your understanding and enjoyment of the Bible, that should suffice.

[talmid56]

Well, it could be I didn't write that last sentence clearly. What I mean is, deal with any grammar point(s) that you need to, in order to increase your understanding and enjoyment of the text before you. Then, of the Tanakh as a whole. Prioritize that investigation of grammar, as needed or desired. Put any detailed, long sessions of investigating, especially of items that are not used frequently, as lower priority. At any rate, Jason, I think we are in basic agreement as to the role grammar study should play in our Hebrew journeys. Kenneth, I hope these discussions are helpful to you.

[talmid56]

And of course, he should learn basic grammar as part of his foundation. Just as he should learn as much common vocabulary as possible in the first year or two. Also, don't stop learning grammar as you go forward. Just don't make grammar your primary focus. Make reading with comprehension and enjoyment your focus. That is my advice, and what I've practiced myself.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Dewayne,
I have used Unfolding Word a lot of times, and I think it is great. I always try to look up grammar books and articles before I ask a question on this discussion forum. Anyway, my interest in Biblical Hebrew is different than most people because I am not trying to learn the language. I have my "agenda", "hobby horse" to ride, and "my axe to grind" when it comes to the Hebrew Bible. (I love those sayings.) I don't want to discuss what that is right now because it is irrelevant.
I just asked a question about the construct form used before prepositions, and I got some good answers. Also, I hope to learn more about Biblical Hebrew grammar in the future. It is nice that people care about languages and encouraging people to study them properly. I respect that and I take what they are saying seriously.

[talmid56]

I can understand why you might not want to discuss your "agenda", especially if it would run afoul of the forum rules about theology. Various people have different reasons for learning Hebrew. That's fine. However, I fear that approaching it for the reasons you mention may not be in your best interest. One who approaches Hebrew or Greek studies for such reasons runs the risk of skewing the data to fit preconceived notions. You may find things in the source language and texts that really aren't there. I think such is the case with the people who believe and promote the "Bible Code" theories that were popular some years ago. I see the same problem with Jewish and some Christian scholars who seek mystical meanings from letters of the Hebrew alphabet, for example.

Kenneth, of course you must make your own decisions about this. Meanwhile, feel free to ask questions.