Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Dewayne,
In the book about learning languages naturally, the author said to study a language in a way that interests the person a lot, including studying a subject in that language. I like to do my own textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, even if I am not qualified and I don't follow the rules of the subject. I realize that studying Biblical Hebrew in my own limited way for this purpose makes it interesting to me. I look up a lot of words and sometimes grammar rules, etc. I accidentally learn things, I assume, even if I don't want to try to learn the language.
Kenneth Greifer
talmid56
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Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by talmid56 »

Of course you should study what interests you. No question. But, there is a difference between studying about a language and studying a language. (Unfortunately, the traditional ways of teaching Biblical Hebrew often tend to be the former way.) In the case of textual criticism, there is only a small amount you can do without knowing the language, or at least be seriously studying it. I've done a lot over the years in the Greek Bible, and some in the Hebrew Bible. I could not do it in any meaningful way, or hope to do it accurately, without knowledge of the languages. I don't believe you can, either, not if you want to do it correctly.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
Kenneth Greifer
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Dewayne,
There are hundreds or maybe thousands of quotes (verses) in the Hebrew Bible that are possibly messed up in some way, and there have been many thousands or millions of educated people who have tried to figure them out over thousands of years. They had their chance to do that and it did not work out, so what is the difference if I try to? So I give it a shot. If the best scholars in the world, can't figure something out, then you could say that knowledge of Biblical Hebrew does not guarantee success. It might not be about knowledge only. The Hebrew Bible is full poetry and witty sayings and play on words, etc. It is not just about knowing the words and grammar, etc. Sometimes, you have to be able to understand the poetry or wittiness of the quotes. Or just some unusual way of saying something. If that is the case, then the answers might not involve high-level grammar or knowledge of Biblical Hebrew, but noticing some little detail involving poetry or wittiness. That is how I look at it.
Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:57 am Dewayne,
There are hundreds or maybe thousands of quotes (verses) in the Hebrew Bible that are possibly messed up in some way, and there have been many thousands or millions of educated people who have tried to figure them out over thousands of years. They had their chance to do that and it did not work out, so what is the difference if I try to? So I give it a shot. If the best scholars in the world, can't figure something out, then you could say that knowledge of Biblical Hebrew does not guarantee success. It might not be about knowledge only. The Hebrew Bible is full poetry and witty sayings and play on words, etc. It is not just about knowing the words and grammar, etc. Sometimes, you have to be able to understand the poetry or wittiness of the quotes. Or just some unusual way of saying something. If that is the case, then the answers might not involve high-level grammar or knowledge of Biblical Hebrew, but noticing some little detail involving poetry or wittiness. That is how I look at it.
Also, I like to divide the Hebrew letters into words differently to see what else the quotes can say. I have done this with hundreds of quotes probably.
Kenneth Greifer
talmid56
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Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by talmid56 »

Could you give me some examples? And again, if you don't know the language, how could you be sure that your analysis is correct? This is guesswork and speculation, seems to me. Not scholarship.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
Kenneth Greifer
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

talmid56 wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:14 am Could you give me some examples? And again, if you don't know the language, how could you be sure that your analysis is correct? This is guesswork and speculation, seems to me. Not scholarship.
Dewayne,
I don't want to show any examples right now. I agree that what I do is guesswork and speculation and not scholarship. I still like to do it. I am not interfering with real scholars doing their work, and I always tell people that I am not a scholar, if I show my ideas to people, so I am not tricking them. Some non-scholars present their ideas to people in a way that misleads them into thinking their ideas are mainstream ideas. They never actually tell people that their ideas are their own and they won't find any scholars who agree with them.

I see nothing wrong with guessing and speculation in this subject. I understand other people are very protective of the traditional Hebrew Bible and scholarship, and they don't like it.
Kenneth Greifer
talmid56
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by talmid56 »

Looks like I have reached the limit of how I can help you, then. Have a nice life.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
Kenneth Greifer
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Thanks. You too.
Kenneth Greifer
kwrandolph
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:57 am Dewayne,
There are hundreds or maybe thousands of quotes (verses) in the Hebrew Bible that are possibly messed up in some way, and there have been many thousands or millions of educated people who have tried to figure them out over thousands of years. They had their chance to do that and it did not work out,
If you don’t know Biblical Hebrew, nor want to learn it, what makes you think “it did not work out”?
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:57 am so what is the difference if I try to?
If you don’t know Biblical Hebrew, you’ll end up with GIGO.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:57 am So I give it a shot. If the best scholars in the world, can't figure something out, then you could say that knowledge of Biblical Hebrew does not guarantee success.
Many people think they know Biblical Hebrew, but don’t. That’s why they struggle. If you don’t know Biblical Hebrew yourself, you won’t be able to tell the difference between those who know Biblical Hebrew and those who don’t.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:57 am I agree that what I do is guesswork and speculation and not scholarship. I still like to do it.
I wish you had told us this at the beginning. Here we were trying to help you learn Biblical Hebrew, and that was wasted effort because you don’t want to learn.

If you want to go off on your own little hobby horse, have fun.

Karl W. Randolph.
Kenneth Greifer
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I changed my mind.
Last edited by Kenneth Greifer on Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kenneth Greifer
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