Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I changed my mind.
Last edited by Kenneth Greifer on Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I changed my mind.
Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth Greifer
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm

Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

If you have a sentence with ten words in Biblical Hebrew, do you have to know every word and grammar rule of Biblical Hebrew to analyze that ten word sentence? I don't think so.
Kenneth Greifer
kwrandolph
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am Karl,
If I ask a grammatical question or a question about a word's meaning, and you don't like what I am doing with that information, then you don't want to answer the question.
You can do whatever you want with the information. That’s not the point. We as a group invested a fair amount of time and effort to try to help you learn Biblical Hebrew, only to find out at the end that you have no interest in learning Biblical Hebrew. We wasted our time and effort trying to help you. If you had been clear from the beginning that you have no interest in learning Biblical Hebrew, we wouldn’t have wasted our time and effort.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am How do you know what strange things people believe when they read the Hebrew Bible?
Define “strange things people believe”.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am Some people study it to try to disprove it. If you find out the person is an atheist who hates the Bible, will you say I won't help you understand Biblical Hebrew?
I would at least try to make him an honest atheist, unlike some crooked ones who say “The Bible itself teaches …” when the Bible clearly doesn’t.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am What if the person is trying to prove some weird religious beliefs that you don't like?
Irrelevant.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am I am trying to understand Biblical Hebrew in a legitimate way.
You need to learn Biblical Hebrew in order to do that. Wait, you said you have no interest in learning Biblical Hebrew.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am Maybe my "textual criticism" does not meet the standards of scholarship. I am not really sure if my work is speculation only, but scholarly textual criticism also involves guessing. I believe they call it "textual emendations", but it really is "guessing."
True, careful textual criticism starts with what is there. Are there actual texts that have the alternate reading? How good are they? Much of recognizing the quality of different texts demands knowledge of Biblical Hebrew. In short, you don’t know what you are talking about.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am Even if they are scholars, they are guessing all of the time. So much of scholarship is guessing, but they do it in a scholarly way. Sometimes, when I read things scholars say, I wonder what planet they are from because their opinions are so wild and are not in the Bible, in my opinion.
Opinions are a dime a dozen, and worth that much. It sounds like you try to impose your opinions onto the text, instead of analyzing what the text actually says.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am From now on, every one on B-Hebrew who asks a grammatical question or any question should have to tell first what their intentions are with that knowledge, so every one can decide if they like what the person is doing with that knowledge.
With the exception of you, as far as I know, all those who ask questions on this list do it for the purpose of learning Biblical Hebrew.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:33 am Maybe I am learning Biblical Hebrew my own way. My goal is not to learn the language to just sit around studying the Bible like the good people (you) and some other people. Maybe I am studying like an evil person in your opinion because I don't want to learn the language, but I am interested in textual criticism only. I am glad if you don't answer me if you are too wonderful for me to talk to. I am unworthy of your time and greatness. Go study the Bible for your good purposes. I will try to learn what interests me about Biblical Hebrew, and if people who are not intellectual elitists are willing to talk to me, that will be nice.
What you do on your time is none of my business. It’s when you ask for help under false pretenses which causes us to try to help when help is not wanted,… how would you react if someone does that to you?

Karl W. Randolph.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Karl,
I study Biblical Hebrew, but I am not trying to memorize the language, which is what I consider learning the language. I am trying to read and understand particular quotes. One at a time, and then I move on. I don't try to remember every word I encounter and it's meaning. I am still studying the language, but not the same exact way with the same goal. I have not pretended to want to memorize the language or even to learn the words by heart in the first place, since I read it as a silent language. I don't try to pronounce the words. You don't know how much I know or if I am right or wrong.

One of the rules of this discussion forum is to assume people are acting in good faith. I am acting in good faith, but you are twisting my words to sound like I am a liar and someone who is misleading people and wasting their time. Go read the civil discourse rules. I am not acting in bad faith. I am just interested in a different outcome from my studying Biblical Hebrew. Like it or not.

When I ask questions, they are real, and I am really trying to learn something.
Kenneth Greifer
talmid56
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by talmid56 »

Kenneth, It is not necessary to use rote memorization--I assume this is what you mean by "memorize" re Hebrew-- to learn. That's why I mentioned about learning vocabulary and grammar in context, and interactively. None of these involves memorization per se. If I understand Karl correctly, his statements about how he gained his knowledge of BH show he attained it mostly by reading, not by memorization. It seems we have a straw man here.

As for scholars and guessing: yes, some scholars just guess about some things. However, the competent ones, the honest and dedicated ones, try to back up their "guesses" with at least some evidence. There is a difference between informed opinion and speculation. It seems you wish to indulge in the latter and do not wish to put in the time and effort needed to truly learn Hebrew in any meaningful way. That is your right, and your choice. But, let's get real here and not pretend you are doing otherwise. And, Kenneth: Karl is right that you have wasted the time of people who offered to help you.
Last edited by talmid56 on Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
talmid56
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by talmid56 »

All this reminds me of a sermon illustration I heard once about evangelism. (No worries, I'm not going to do any here. :D ) A man criticized the preacher in a small church saying, "I don't like how you do evangelism." The preacher asked the man how he did it. After several excuses, he admitted he didn't actually do any evangelism. The preacher replied, "Well, I like how I do it better than how you don't do it."

You all can draw your own applications for BH study and learning, and scholarship. 8-)
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I never asked anyone here how to study Biblical Hebrew. People took it upon themselves to lecture me on a subject I did not ask about. If you wasted time advising me how to study Biblical Hebrew, that was your choice. I think the advice I received was interesting and not a waste of time to me, but you might not agree. I just know for a fact that I didn't ask anybody for that advice.

I only ask about word meanings and some grammar rules. I am trying to understand Biblical Hebrew, even if I am not trying to memorize or as you and other people somehow like to use euphemisms instead of saying memorize. Maybe you don't memorize, but you somehow remember the words in a non-memorizing way. I don't think it is a waste of time for me to ask grammar questions about topics that confuse me. I do study Biblical Hebrew. Any time wasting was done by people who asked me about my way of studying or not studying or learning or not learning or memorizing or not memorizing Biblical Hebrew. I should have not participated in any discussion on that topic. I did not bring it up, so don't put the blame on me. Go read the discussion and see if I started that discussion.

I realize that some of you are language teachers, so you try to be nice and advise people on how to learn languages. That is very nice, but you can't demand that a person actually obey you and then get mad because they didn't obey you. I am not your student. I asked a grammar question originally. All other comments were by nice people who did not understand my goals. I am not wasting your time when I ask a grammar question. This might surprise you, but this is a discussion forum. People ask questions, and the idea is that other people will read the answers too, and they will benefit. It is not a private conversation because everyone gets to learn about the grammar topic. If you consider that other people learned from everything you all said, then you did not waste any time because you helped other people too.
Kenneth Greifer
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Kirk Lowery
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Kirk Lowery »

Kenneth,

You are right that your goals are your choice. As moderator, I've had no issues with what you have been posting, even when I personally disagree with them or your approach to language. As long as your posts are within our charter (and they have been), anything else is really none of our business. It is the choice of the other members as to whether they respond to you or not. The purpose of the forum is for illumination and enlightenment, not polemic. And I think you understand that.

Karl,

Kenneth is right. We don't have the right to publicly attack other's motives, not on this forum. Perhaps you don't remember the "flame wars" we used to have on B-Hebrew during the 1990s. Our rules today are a result of that nastiness. If you don't like Kenneth's posts, don't respond. It's not up to us to correct one another's beliefs. The back and forth of logical argument is normal, but we must watch our rhetoric. The goal is not to "win" the argument.

Let's play nice.

Kirk
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Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 56:10 construct question

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:09 pm If you have a sentence with ten words in Biblical Hebrew, do you have to know every word and grammar rule of Biblical Hebrew to analyze that ten word sentence? I don't think so.
I think it depends on the sentence, but definitely depends on what you mean by "analyze."
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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