B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Isaiah 56:10 ישעיה
צפו צֹפָ֞יו עִוְרִ֤ים כֻּלָּם֙ לֹ֣א יָדָ֔עוּ כֻּלָּם֙ כְּלָבִ֣ים אִלְּמִ֔ים לֹ֥א יוּכְל֖וּ לִנְבֹּ֑חַ הֹזִים֙ שֹֽׁכְבִ֔ים אֹהֲבֵ֖י לָנֽוּם

Does this quote say "lovers of sleeping" or "they love to sleep" or what? If the construct is before the letter lamed "to" or "for", does it still mean "of"?

I was looking at Gesenius Hebrew Grammar (some weird symbol) 130.

§130. Wider Use of the Construct State.
aThe construct state, which, according to § 89 a, primarily represents only the immediate government by one substantive of the following word (or combination of words), is frequently employed in rapid narrative as a connecting form, even apart from the genitive relation; so especially—

(1) Before prepositions,[1] particularly in elevated (prophetic or poetic) style, especially when the nomen regens is a participle. Thus before בְּ, שִׂמְחַת בַּקָּצִיר the joy in the harvest, Is 92, 2 S 121, ψ 1368f.; in participles, Is 511, 91, 198, ψ 847, and especially often when בְּ with a suffix follows the participle, e.g. ψ 212 כָּל־חוֹסֵי בוֹ; cf. Na 17, Jer 816 (ψ 241); ψ 649 (unless רֹאֶה should be read); 98:7.[2]—Before לְ, Ho 96 (but read probably מַתֲמַדֵּי כַסְפָּם); ψ 585 (before לָמוֹ); Pr 249, Jb 182, La 218 (before לָךְ); 1 Ch 655, 2328; in participles, Ez 3811, Jb 245; before לְ with an infinitive, Is 5610, and again before לְ with a suffix, Gn 2421, Is 3018, 643;[3]—before אֶל־, Is 1419, Ez 2117; —before אֶת־ (with), Is 86; —before מִן, Gn 322, Is 289 (a participle); Jer 2323, Ez 132, Ho 75; —before עַל־, Ju 510; —before בִּלְתִּי, Is 146; —before the nota accus. את, Jer 3322; —before a locative (which in such cases also serves as a genitive), Ex 2713, Jer 115.

Does Isaiah 9:2 say "inhabitants of a land..." or "in a land..."?

Isaiah Chapter 9 ישעיה
9:1הָעָם֙ הַהֹלְכִ֣ים בַּחֹ֔שֶׁךְ רָא֖וּ א֣וֹר גָּד֑וֹל יֹשְׁבֵי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ צַלְמָ֔וֶת א֖וֹר נָגַ֥הּ עֲלֵיהֶֽם׃

Hi Kenneth,

Isn't "Lovers of sleeping" and "they love to sleep" and "Sleep Lovers" and "sleep loving (dogs)" all the same?

As for הָעָם֙ הַהֹלְכִ֣ים בַּחֹ֔שֶׁךְ רָא֖וּ א֣וֹר גָּד֑וֹל יֹשְׁבֵי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ צַלְמָ֔וֶת א֖וֹר נָגַ֥הּ עֲלֵיהֶֽם
look at יֹשְׁבֵי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ צַלְמָ֔וֶת the same as הַהֹלְכִ֣ים בַּחֹ֔שֶׁךְ
so you can use the exact same form.
So it would be like translating הישבים בארץ צלמות

ducky wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:51 am Hi Kenneth,

Isn't "Lovers of sleeping" and "they love to sleep" and "Sleep Lovers" and "sleep loving (dogs)" all the same?

As for הָעָם֙ הַהֹלְכִ֣ים בַּחֹ֔שֶׁךְ רָא֖וּ א֣וֹר גָּד֑וֹל יֹשְׁבֵי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ צַלְמָ֔וֶת א֖וֹר נָגַ֥הּ עֲלֵיהֶֽם
look at יֹשְׁבֵי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ צַלְמָ֔וֶת the same as הַהֹלְכִ֣ים בַּחֹ֔שֶׁךְ
so you can use the exact same form.
So it would be like translating הישבים בארץ צלמות

I think Isaiah 9:1 says "they are living (dwelling) in a land...", and Isaiah 56:10 says "they love to sleep."
The construct plural ending makes these words unusual, but I think it makes sense that the quotes say "in a land" and "to sleep." You can interpret them different ways, but I think these sound more literal to me. Actually, I have read some literal translations that say "dwellers in a land..." for Isaiah 9:1.

Hi Kenneth,

Just a question,
I notice that it is not your first post in that issue of a literal translation.
Do you write your own? or do you just want to be strict about each and every form?

ducky wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:10 pm Hi Kenneth,

Just a question,
I notice that it is not your first post in that issue of a literal translation.
Do you write your own? or do you just want to be strict about each and every form?

David,
I like to understand what the words really say in Hebrew, because I am curious if the words like "in" or "to" become "of" in these quotes because one of the words is in the construct form. I was wondering how it affects the other words in the sentence. I don't know if I am strict or not. I just want to understand what happens and not just read a simplified translation that doesn't let me know what is really happening in the Hebrew, if possible. I understand that sometimes you can't translate literally, but if I you can, I like to see it.

Kenneth,

Out of curiosity, do you ever spend time reading Hebrew without translating it? I mean, just reading in Hebrew for as long as you can, letting the text flow?

Yours,
Jason

Jason,
I study Hebrew as a silent language. I don't pronounce anything at all. I just look at the words as silent letters and I read it as English. I don't normally even try to learn Hebrew. I have other interests in Biblical Hebrew.

I was wondering if that was the source of the problem. Hebrew is not English. That's not exactly the healthiest of approaches.

Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:40 pm Out of curiosity, do you ever spend time reading Hebrew without translating it? I mean, just reading in Hebrew for as long as you can, letting the text flow?

Hi Jason:

this caught my eye and if I could ask a question on this - if you had to compare "reading" versus "listening" which one would you put a greater emphasis on? SO, for example, say I was gonna spend 30 min in the morning studying Hebrew, would you go "30 min all reading without translating" or "30 min all listening to Hebrew audio" or would you do a mix. If you can, take into account all reading and all listening would be without comprehension (if I read say Joshua I'm simply gonna be reading it but there will be no comprehension of what I'm reading). Same for listening to audio of Joshua - there will be no comprehension.

Glenn