Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

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ducky
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by ducky »

Hi,

the הוה and היה are the same - just a replacement of V and Y.
(and of course, the form הוה is the rare one).

as for the theoretical question of jussive - the reason says that it would be יְהוּ (or יֶהוּ in pausal)

*
Notice, by the way, that every time there is a Hebrew verb with the root second letter is a consonant V - it works mostly in Piel, and the Jussive is easy to be Piel too, (but never in Qal). It is just not a form Hebrew uses in that way.
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Moses Gummadi
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by Moses Gummadi »

ducky wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:26 am as for the theoretical question of jussive - the reason says that it would be יְהוּ (or יֶהוּ in pausal)
Thank you. You confirmed my thinking. Piel is fine. And can I ask what would it look like if I were to add a 3fs pronominal suffix?

Here's the background to my thinking. "Yeho" or "Yahu" could be viewed as a Divine Name (just as Yah יה), given it's occurence in the Elephantine papyrii, Mt.Ebal curse tablet and of course the theophoric names. I am toying with the idea that "calling upon the Name of the LORD" and the Jussive form of the word could be one and the same. Going further, if I add a 3fs pronominal suffix, I could result in the Tetragram. Do you see any alternative ways in which a final ה could be grammatically added to יהו ?
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ducky
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by ducky »

I'm sorry but I didn't really understand you.

3fs = 3rdperson, feminine, singular?

If so, giving an imperfect/jussive a feminine attribute is by replacing its prefix to T
turn (imperfect m) = יפנה
turn (imperfect f) = תפנה
turn (jussive m) = יפן
turn (jussive f) = תפן

The difference is in the prefix (not the suffix)
(But maybe I didn't understand you)
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Jason Hare
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by Jason Hare »

The idea of יָ֫הוּ as a jussive of הָוָה does have its appeal. It’s something I want to think about a little tonight before commenting, if you don’t mind.

This has to do with the idea that archaic prefix of the 3ms imperfect was ya- rather than yi- in the qal (for example, yashmur rather than yishmor). With that, we would expect perhaps yahweh as 3ms imperfect of and a truncated jussive that would create a consonant cluster (yahwehyahwyáhu). I appreciate the suggestion, and it’s something that I want to ponder tonight while I’m free.
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by Jason Hare »

Considerations related to proto-Hebrew are largely theoretical and based on the structure of earlier Semitic languages, like Ugaritic. I’m not trained in reading Ugaritic myself, so much of what I’ve read about the theory is based on second-hand sources. I understand that there were two imperfect verb forms in Ugaritic; namely, yaqtul and yaqtulu. The imperfect in Hebrew is supposed to have had a ya- prefix in the qal (yaqtul) in the same way that we have in the hiphil (yaqtil). It was disambiguated by shifting to yi-, but ya- was maintained in most first-guttural roots, such as יַעֲשֶׂה and יַחֲלֹם. We can assume that the roots היה and הוה were similar. Even though we see יִהְיֶה after the shift, it was probably yahyah or yahyeh (after the vowel distinctions were introduced). The same would probably the be the case with יַהֲוָה and (later) יַהֲוֶה (with or without the chataf-patach), though it shifted to e vowels later (יֶהֱוֶה). The jussive is normally formed with a loss of the final heh, so that yahaweh would have become yahw- by analogy to yishtachaveh. The consonant cluster resolves itself by shifting the stress to the full syllable and creating -u- in the unstressed ultima (like yishtáchu). Thus, yahaweh or yahweh becomes yahw and then yáhu.
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by Jason Hare »

The Academy of the Hebrew Language gives the attached as the qal of the root הוי.
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ducky
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by ducky »

Hebrew's imperfect Qal, like other Semitic languages, is based on three forms:
Yaqtul and Yaqtil (for acts)
yiqtal (for state)

I think that the root of היה fits the state form.
(plus the fact that this is the only root (with חיה) that has a guttural for the first letter and it doesn't affect the prefix of its imperfect (יהיה), so maybe it kept its original vowel since this root was very popular.
So I went like: *yihw->*yihu to יְהוּ
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:57 pm Hebrew's imperfect Qal, like other Semitic languages, is based on three forms:
Yaqtul and Yaqtil (for acts)
yiqtal (for state)

I think that the root of היה fits the state form.
(plus the fact that this is the only root (with חיה) that has a guttural for the first letter and it doesn't affect the prefix of its imperfect (יהיה), so maybe it kept its original vowel since this root was very popular.
So I went like: *yihw->*yihu to יְהוּ
Where can we get more information about proto-Semitic forms?
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ducky
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by ducky »

I think it can be found in every grammar book.

For example, I just looked at the Gesenius in Wikisource...
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius ... HGpar-47-h

I just looked quick, and I don't see that he writes the three forms specifically, but he does give examples for the different forms
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Re: Verb Paradigms For Doubly Weak Verbs

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:13 pm I think it can be found in every grammar book.

For example, I just looked at the Gesenius in Wikisource...
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius ... HGpar-47-h

I just looked quick, and I don't see that he writes the three forms specifically, but he does give examples for the different forms
I’d be interested in a more comprehensive treatment of the theoretical forms and where we get them from.
The problem with Gesenius and others is that the treatment is sparse and piecemeal.
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