Ecclesiastes 3:11

[Chris Watts]

אֶת־הַכֹּל עָשָׂה יָפֶה בְעִתּוֹ גַּם אֶת־הָעֹלָם נָתַן בְּלִבָּם מִבְּלִי אֲשֶׁר לֹא־יִמְצָא הָאָדָם אֶת־הַמַּעֲשֶׂה אֲשֶׁר־עָשָׂה הָאֱלֹהִים מֵרֹאשׁ וְעַד־סוֹף

I will not put a long waffle into this so I will just get straight to my question: Contrary to the accepted interpretation I fail to see that "Man" is the subject of the first half of this verse, rather "Time" is its subject. Being that it begins with אֶת־הַכֹּל and that בְּלִבָּם refers back to אֶת־הַכֹּל and no "Man", while seemingly a logical conclusion at first sight, is alluded to.

This then simplifies the difficulty of understanding אֶת־הָעֹלָם. For it is the only time in all of scripture, (even-shoshan records 437 times in scripture) where this word is employed in this absolute manner, with the definite article.

Chris watts

[ducky]

Hi Chris,

I think that the common understanding is that the subject is God.

but as for "man vs. time" as the subject.

it is way easier to accept "man" as the subject, than "time".
not only because of the "meaning of words" and context.
But also because of the fact that העלם comes with a prefix word את which basically comes before an object (even though there are rare cases of it coming before subject),
And also because it is not "natural" to read it like this.

Can you translate to English the part of את הכל עשה יפה בעתו גם את העלם נתן בלבם?

[Chris Watts]

Hi Ducky, Quick response to clarify - what I meant by the subject of the sentence being 'Time' and not 'man' was that while God makes everything beautiful in its 'time'. The words: אֶת־הַכֹּל contains the subject matter - that is - 'the times', to all these times there is an eternal, hidden purpose, that is hidden from man, this is explained by גַּם אֶת־הָעֹלָם נָתַן בְּלִבָּם, notice that conjunction 'Also'.

As to your question about translating this verse. As far as the KJV is concerned there is clear evidence that the word הָעֹלָם translated as 'World' is wrong. גַּם אֶת־הָעֹלָם נָתַן בְּלִבָּם. I disagree with translations such as : He has put the world in their hearts, or, he has placed eternity in their hearts. this is why I started this topic by saying that 'Time' is the subject here, not 'Man' and 'Time' is the context not God and not 'man'; The whole previous first ten verses could not be more obvious about the contextual nature of verse 11- it is all about God's perfect time and His choice of season, and man is unable to comprehend any of God's actions. God has not put love of the world in our hearts, and he has not made us eternal creatures yet. His TIMES are what stand forever, not us. His choices stand forever. He has placed an eternal nature into those 'Times'. This is what I believe the Hebrew is saying.

EDIT: Sorry Ducky I did not actually answer your question, I tend to type with my thoughts rather than within a scholastic discipline. My translation would be: "God makes everything beautiful in His/its time, added to which God has also given/ascribed The Eternal attribute to His doings so that no man can reason or understand the workings of God from their start to the end". This is the best I can offer to provide a sense of how I am understanding this verse.

[ducky]

Hi Chris,

So, without talking about vocabulary or interpretation) the difference that you pointed in your translation is that the לבם refers to the: "-Times- that God has put in this world". And not in the hearts of men.

I can understand your point, but I don't see it that way.

because I see this sentence repeats the previous one.
10: רָאִיתִי אֶת הָעִנְיָן אֲשֶׁר נָתַן אֱלֹהִים לִבְנֵי הָאָדָם לַעֲנוֹת בּוֹ
11: גַּם אֶת הָעֹלָם נָתַן בְּלִבָּם

So, in verse 10 it uses the form of God has given to men... נתן אלהים לבני האדם.
And in verse 11 it repeats the same words + "also" --> "And also, he has given... in their hearts"... גם את העלם נתן בלבם

It just pulls you back to men from the previous verse.

**
I edited and deleted the end.

[Chris Watts]

Hi Chris,

So, without talking about vocabulary or interpretation) the difference that you pointed in your translation is that the לבם refers to the: "-Times- that God has put in this world". And not in the hearts of men.

I can understand your point, but I don't see it that way.

because I see this sentence repeats the previous one.
10: רָאִיתִי אֶת הָעִנְיָן אֲשֶׁר נָתַן אֱלֹהִים לִבְנֵי הָאָדָם לַעֲנוֹת בּוֹ
11: גַּם אֶת הָעֹלָם נָתַן בְּלִבָּם

So, in verse 10 it uses the form of God has given to men... נתן אלהים לבני האדם.
And in verse 11 it repeats the same words + "also" --> "And also, he has given... in their hearts"... גם את העלם נתן בלבם

It just pulls you back to men from the previous verse.

**
I edited and deleted the end.

Hallo Ducky,

I also originally understood the hebrew this way, the same way you understand it. I also assumed that there could be no question about it's translation. But I reflected a long time about how it was translated and the longer I kept reading the verses and the context, verse 11 made absolutely no sense at all. SO....

With reference to this word:
בלבם
I have translated it as : "..in the midst of them" as opposed to : "...in their hearts". One reason I have already stated above. But the other reason being that then the last clause of verse 11: מִבְּלִי אֲשֶׁר לֹא־יִמְצָא הָאָדָם אֶת־הַמַּעֲשֶׂה אֲשֶׁר־עָשָׂה הָאֱלֹהִים מֵרֹאשׁ וְעַד־סוֹףnow makes perfect sense. In that God is Eternal and the beginning and end hidden, He has set Eternity and Eternal matters and workings within 'Time'. If he set eternity into mens' hearts how on earth does this make any sense at all with the result that man can not reason out God's workings amongst mankind. God is the author of seasonal changes and this is what escapes Man's ability to understand the actions of an Eternal God within 'Time'.

EDIT: I have just been reading, from the original book, a commentary by a man called Michael Jermin, he wrote this to the daughter of King James 1 in 1638."""...But the translation does not appear to me to kiss the original. The hebrew הָעֹלָם does not properly signify the world, but Tempus absconditum, a hidden time....it may then be rendered thus, He hath made everything beautiful in his time, also He has set a hidden time in the heart of them. that is, he hath hidden from the heart of men the time for everything which He hath appointed""" (I hope I have the latin correct it was smudged a bit)

I just thought this was interesting as it reverts back to translating בלבם as "in their heart". But is also clarifies that last clause of verse 11 and makes more sense than any of the standard English translations.

I also need to emphasize that there is not a single place in all of scripture where the word הָעֹלָם is written as an absolute, only here. This makes for an understanding that deviates just slightly from its popular usage as eternal, world (in later BH) and forever.
"""

[ducky]

Hi,

It took me awhile, but I think that Now I start to understand your point.
You say that העלם has the meaning of "hide". And so that men cannot understand the hidden way of god's created appointed times (something like that).
(This idea is also found in commentaries, in another way).

If so, then you can still read בלבם referring to men.
And that God put the "hide factor" in the hearts of men (instead of saying that he put it in the appointed times).

But still, I think that the word is about time - and it comes as the opposite of the עת (the appointed time).
To say that God gave the appointed times and also the sense of "continuing time".

[kwrandolph]

Chris, as I understand you, are you saying that what Solomon wrote here is mirrored by Paul in Romans 1:18–20 and again Romans 2:15? Or do I misunderstand you?

Karl W. Randolph.

[Chris Watts]

Ducky...Well thank you Ducky, at this moment it can go either way. I keep an open mind on this.

Karl, Hallo there, regarding Romans - no, that never crossed my mind.

Kind regards to you both
Chris watts