Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by Isaac Fried »

Then there are עִמָּכֶם אֲדֹנֵיכֶם ending in the parallel, no longer in independent use, clinging PP אָכֶם for אָתֶם.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Jemoh66
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by Jemoh66 »

SteveMiller wrote:Jonathan,
Does Swahili also reverse the tense like BH?
No. The tenses are clear in Swahili. They are expressed by prefixes. The structure of a verb is simple: SAM* + Tense + (OAM)** + Root.
* Subject agreement marker
** Object agreement marker

Examples:
Nilimwambia, I told him.
Ni + li + mu + ambia
I + SP + him + tell

Nitakwambia, I will tell you.
Ni + ta + ku + ambia
I + Future + you + tell

Even though there is a simple past tense, Swahili speakers turn to a narrative tense when they retell stories. The LI+ tense is use for marking off-the-line verbs while the KA+ tense is used to carry the mainline of the narrative, the way the wayyiqtol does in BH narrative.
So in a narrative "(then) I told him" would be nikamwambia. There's no need for a "then" or an "and."

Now that I have studied BH I see what is called "narrative tense" more as a marker of consecutivity, (if that's even a word). This is backed by the fact that the KA- tense is used consecutively to an imperative.

Jonathan Mohler
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CowboysDad
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by CowboysDad »

SteveMiller wrote: What is meant here by correlate? Does it mean the latter verb follows the previous one in sequence?
Steve, I'm understanding Watts to mean by correlative both that the perfects have the waw attached and that in interpretation they relate to their antecedent by being different descriptions of the same thing or a whole and its parts. Something like:
Go to church (antecedent) and pray (perfect) and sing (perfect) ...
rather than
Go to church (antecedent) and pick up the laundry (perfect) and write a poem (perfect) ...

Specifically he writes, "Another complication for a perfect develops when it is linked by the conjunction waw to a preceding expression so as to indicate a correlative relationship. As the word 'father' and the word 'son' imply each other, or as a whole and its parts imply each other, so a perfect with a waw attached and its antecedent imply each other. This relationship is correlative and gives occasion for the name correlative perfect.... The visible mark of the correlative perfects is their immediate connection with the conjunction. To them it is always attached, but never to other perfects."

- Daniel
Daniel McCabe, ThM, DMin
kwrandolph
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by kwrandolph »

CowboysDad wrote:
SteveMiller wrote: What is meant here by correlate? Does it mean the latter verb follows the previous one in sequence?
Steve, I'm understanding Watts to mean by correlative both that the perfects have the waw attached and that in interpretation they relate to their antecedent by being different descriptions of the same thing or a whole and its parts. Something like:
Go to church (antecedent) and pray (perfect) and sing (perfect) ...
rather than
Go to church (antecedent) and pick up the laundry (perfect) and write a poem (perfect) ...
Steve’s question is fitting here. I looked up in the dictionary because I had the same question, and found:

correlate
verb |ˈkôrəˌlāt; ˈkär-| [ intrans. ]
have a mutual relationship or connection, in which one thing affects or depends on another : the study found that success in the educational system correlates highly with class.
• [ trans. ] establish such a relationship or connection between : we should correlate general trends in public opinion with trends in the content of television news.
noun |-lət|
each of two or more related or complementary things : strategies to promote health should pay greater attention to financial hardship and other correlates of poverty


The second scenario you have above is possible, if the person, a member of the worship team, went to pick up the vestments to get them washed and was asked to write the words to a song to be sung by the worship team.

My understanding of the 1 Kings passage is that it is more like your second example than the first.
CowboysDad wrote:Specifically he writes, "Another complication for a perfect develops when it is linked by the conjunction waw to a preceding expression so as to indicate a correlative relationship. As the word 'father' and the word 'son' imply each other, or as a whole and its parts imply each other, so a perfect with a waw attached and its antecedent imply each other. This relationship is correlative and gives occasion for the name correlative perfect.... The visible mark of the correlative perfects is their immediate connection with the conjunction. To them it is always attached, but never to other perfects."

- Daniel
This passage is a little confusing. Is he saying that merely a waw + Qatal following an imperative makes it into a correlation, even when the meanings of the words normally would not be recognized as being correlative? So the music director going to church to pick up the laundry and write a poem are correlative because they are found in this syntactical construct?

It’s been a long time since I last read the book, though I remember he tried to argue that Biblical Hebrew conjugation coded for aspect, not tense. In that argument he’s wrong because the conjugations don’t code for aspect either. I don’t recommend the book for that reason.

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by Isaac Fried »

Swahili:
Nitakwambia, 'I will tell you', = Ni + ta + ku + ambia

Hebrew:
אני-אתה-כה-מביע

Isaac Fried, Boston University
CowboysDad
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by CowboysDad »

kwrandolph wrote:
The second scenario you have above is possible, if the person, a member of the worship team, went to pick up the vestments to get them washed and was asked to write the words to a song to be sung by the worship team.

This passage is a little confusing. Is he saying that merely a waw + Qatal following an imperative makes it into a correlation, even when the meanings of the words normally would not be recognized as being correlative? So the music director going to church to pick up the laundry and write a poem are correlative because they are found in this syntactical construct?
Well played! Yes, I take Watts to mean that the waw + Qatal confirms a correlative relationship, so that if present we should in fact read the text as if the person went to church, washed the vestments and wrote a worship song. He is arguing that our translations have suffered because we have not recognized this correlative relationship. If the writer did not have the vestments or a worship song in mind, but rather the laundry at home and a poem that has nothing to do with worship, then he seems to be suggesting that they will NOT be in the form of waw + Qatal but rather as straight imperatives, for example.
Daniel McCabe, ThM, DMin
Isaac Fried
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by Isaac Fried »

Recall that "and" is antipodally situated on the other side of "end".

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RGLehmann
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Re: Imperative followed by perfect(s) with vav

Post by RGLehmann »

Note that the probably most recent (though already ten years old) and most comprehensive book on that topic is by Johannes F. Diehl from Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main, Germany:
Johannes F. Diehl: Die Fortführung des Imperativs im Biblischen Hebräisch. AOAT 286. Münster 2004

Diehl has analysed in his data base almost every case of an imperative which is connected with any othe verb form.
Definitely worth reading or, if you don't read German, at least not to ignore in its main lines.
Reinhard G.Lehmann, Academic Director
Johannes Gutenberg University of Mainz, Germay, Research Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy, http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/eng/116.php
כבד אלהים הסתר דבר וכבד מלכים חקר דבר
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