Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

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S_Walch
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby S_Walch » Fri May 22, 2020 11:28 am

Jonathan Beck wrote:I’m also sure the hitpael functions reflexivley more often than three times.

Oh yes most certainly - the "hitpael" examples I have there are the only places where just קבץ appears in hitpael form. Sorry if that wasn't obvious!

As for my word choice, I just used it because I’m most familiar with the genesis narratives.

BDB notes that קבץ and אסף are both synonyms in BH, so either is most certainly fine for saying someone "gathered" somewhere. :)

ducky wrote:So I guess there are some cases, but surely these are not the common way.

This is more or less certain. If we based it on the results in the first 900 examples, we're looking at close to 0%.

As you've rightly pointed out with the three possible exceptions, one is a quote, the other is more likely the continuation of the previous thought, and the third is poetry.

There maybe some exceptions in the following 5,100+ examples, but they will be extremely rare.

I wasn't too bothered about finding an exception - I also don't plan on going through 14,000+ examples just to find one either heh. :)
Ste Walch

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby Jason Hare » Fri May 22, 2020 11:39 am

Just to close the discussion about word order, I think you came to an agreement that the verb itself would not be in the first position. That was my objection... that something needs to come before the qāṭal, not that q̄aṭal cannot be in the first clause. It's most common for some type of temporal marker to be inserted before it or simply ויהי (often joined with a temporal marker).

Since we don't have any of these markers in the suggested translation text, it is best to start with a vayyiqṭōl or front the subject in some way (if you really don't want to use a vayyiqṭōl).

There doesn't need to be an "and" or "now" or whatever in English translation to justify using vayyiqṭōl, nor is it necessary to translate the conjunction, since it is a marker of narrative form and not a true conjunction. Even the whole word ויהי doesn't always need to be translated.
Jason Hare
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ducky
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby ducky » Fri May 22, 2020 12:18 pm

Jonathan Beck wrote:Glad someone else used qbs! :))) My only minor complaint would be that the hitpael or that verb by itself means “to gather together” - no need for yachdav. I think the latter is mainly used for people.

I also had lakhem there at the end but decided against to for some reason.

Jonathan


Hi Jonathan,

קבץ and אסף have the same basic meaning.

As for יחדו...
you point is nice, as why the word יחדו should come if there is a gathering.
And so, we can say that about the English itself.
In the source sentence, he wrote: "Gether together"
Do we need that "together"?

but this is how he wrote, and I felt that he wanted us to translate the right word for that.

For example, in the previous exercise, I think I am the only one who used the word לקראת - because I saw he wrote "Came forth" - and I felt that he wanted us to translate the word "forth" as well, and so, I also had to change a little bit the order of the sentence, so I can keep its idea while translating the whole words that I felt he wanted us to use.

***
The combination of אסף/קבץ with יחד/יחדו occurs in the bible (maybe a dozen), and there is no wrong to use that.

*
Also, the Hitpael form and the Niphal form has the same basic meaning for these roots, and it doesn't matter if we use this one or that one in this sentence.

***
S_Walch wrote:
Spoiler: show
קרא הנביא [לעם / אל־העם] אשר נאספו על־ההר ויאמר בחרו ביום הזה בין את־יהוה ובין את־אלהי כנען


קָרָא הַנּבִיא [לָעָם / אֶל־הָעָם] אֲשֶׁר נֶאֶסְפוּ עַל־הָהָר וְיֹּאמֶר בַּחֲרוּ בְיוֺם [בְּיוֺם ?] הַזֶה בֵּין אֶת־יהוה וּבֵין אֶת־אֱלֹהֵי כְנַעַן


Ste Walch,

When you write בחרו ביום הזה - it gives the sense of choosing/picking in this day (than any other day)
As to choose in Sunday over Monday.

because the letter ב after the root בחר is a prefix for the chosen noun.
בחר בה
he chose her

******
And not that what you wrote is bad, but to read it with the idea you wanted, I'm reading it with a "break"
As:
בחרו, ביום הזה, בין
As: Choose, on this day, between...

*****************

Also, even if you wrote היום הזה, I see that you continued with:
בין את י"י" ובין את אלהי כנען
And so, by doing that, you also separate between בחרו (the verb) and the בין
because you chose to write את

and there is no style of בין את
(It can be found in Modern, by the way)

If you wanted to use this style, then check Joshua 24:15
בַּחֲרוּ לָכֶם הַיּוֹם אֶת מִי תַעֲבֹדוּן
אִם אֶת אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר עָבְדוּ אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם אֲשֶׁר מֵעֵבֶר הַנָּהָר
וְאִם אֶת אֱלֹהֵי הָאֱמֹרִי אֲשֶׁר אַתֶּם יֹשְׁבִים בְּאַרְצָם
David Hunter

S_Walch
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby S_Walch » Fri May 22, 2020 1:25 pm

Thanks for the excellent tips as usual, David. :)

So my sentence should have looked like this:

Spoiler: show
הַנּבִיא קָרָא אֶל־הָעָם אֲשֶׁר נֶאֶסְפוּ עַל־הָהָר וְיֹּאמֶר בַּחֲרוּ הַיּוֺם הַזֶּה בֵּין יהוה וּבֵין אֱלֹהֵי כְנַעַן
Ste Walch

ducky
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby ducky » Fri May 22, 2020 2:22 pm

Thank you for your words, Ste Walch

It is better.
Only that you don't really need to write הזה.
In Hebrew, the definite article alone can already bear the meaning of "This"
This day (in the meaning of "today") - היום

the combination of היום הזה - usually refers to a specific day or come to emphasize.
"It started years ago and it continues until This day היום הזה"
"Remember That day"
and so on...
This is just a note.

Another thing...
Correct the vowel on the prefix Vav of ויאמר

*************
I have to say that this project is really great.
We find ourselves checking ourselves and then checking our friends and each one has his perspective and arguments about some issues.
So this is really great.
And props to Jason who started this and let us think more about the way of Hebrew by producing it and not just by reading it.
David Hunter

Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby Jonathan Beck » Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 pm

ducky wrote:
Jonathan Beck wrote:Glad someone else used qbs! :))) My only minor complaint would be that the hitpael or that verb by itself means “to gather together” - no need for yachdav. I think the latter is mainly used for people.

I also had lakhem there at the end but decided against to for some reason.

Jonathan


Hi Jonathan,

קבץ and אסף have the same basic meaning.

As for יחדו...
you point is nice, as why the word יחדו should come if there is a gathering.
And so, we can say that about the English itself.
In the source sentence, he wrote: "Gether together"
Do we need that "together"?

but this is how he wrote, and I felt that he wanted us to translate the right word for that.

For example, in the previous exercise, I think I am the only one who used the word לקראת - because I saw he wrote "Came forth" - and I felt that he wanted us to translate the word "forth" as well, and so, I also had to change a little bit the order of the sentence, so I can keep its idea while translating the whole words that I felt he wanted us to use.


I have no problem with any of what you said. Completely agreed. Again, the main reason why I used קב‌ץ was because that's just what I was familiar with from the Joseph story in Genesis (at least, I think that's where it was from). Thanks for your very useful feedback!

Jonathan

kwrandolph
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby kwrandolph » Fri May 22, 2020 6:36 pm

Jason Hare wrote:When the verb is in the initial position, it would be most natural to use it as a vav-consecutive. Instead of קרא, it should be ויקרא vayyiqrāʾ.


Jonathan Beck wrote:You mean you disagree with Weingreen, as well as virtually every other Hebrew grammar on the market? ;)

Hey, that’s actually some pretty good reasoning. But I’ve never seen a verb in narrative past prose NOT contain the wa- prefix. Can you give some examples?

If what you’re saying is true, my training would suggest that the verb and the subject should actually be reversed from what you have. I’ll explain if you’re curious. But I’m impressed!

Jonathan


My mind was saying that the verb comes first. My gut feeling said that the subject or some other word comes before the verb in these sentences where the verb is in Qatal. My mind was wrong, from what I now find.

Almost all of narration is in strict chronological order. so the waw + Yiqtol indicating continuation fits perfectly.

When asked to give some examples, I first looked up in 1 Chronicles 1–2. There I found that where the listings switched from one to another ancestral line, that starting the new ancestral line did not have a beginning waw. Then following down the line of descent they were all connected by waws. Then the switch to another ancestral line, and no waw.

But I was unsatisfied with this, as all of these sentences were verbless sentences.

Next I looked at 2 Kings 1–10 where I remembered that there were several incidents recorded that are not in strict chronological order. I didn’t count verses that started within a spoken statement, even so I counted 35 verses that don’t start with a waw + Yiqtol. The majority of such verses start with a waw + another word, starting a side story connected with the main story, e.g. 2 Kings 7:3 and 2 Kings 9:29, 31, 37. A few of the places where there is a complete change of subject and action, the verses don’t start with a waw, e.g. 2 Kings 10:32–33. In these latter examples, the verb in Qatal (if in indicative mood) comes before the subject if there’s another word preceding the verb, e.g. בראשית‫,‬ בימים ההם otherwise the subject comes before the verb.

This was a challenge, and I’ve learned something from it. Thanks.

Karl W. Randolph.

ducky
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby ducky » Fri May 22, 2020 7:51 pm

Jonathan Beck wrote:I have no problem with any of what you said. Completely agreed. Again, the main reason why I used קב‌ץ was because that's just what I was familiar with from the Joseph story in Genesis (at least, I think that's where it was from). Thanks for your very useful feedback


Hi Jonathan,
I think that he wrote the sentence based on words from 1Kings 18:19-21, And Joshua 24:15.

kwrandolph wrote:My mind was saying that the verb comes first. My gut feeling said that the subject or some other word comes before the verb in these sentences where the verb is in Qatal. My mind was wrong, from what I now find.

A few of the places where there is a complete change of subject and action, the verses don’t start with a waw, e.g. 2 Kings 10:32–33. In these latter examples, the verb in Qatal (if in indicative mood) comes before the subject if there’s another word preceding the verb, e.g. בראשית‫,‬ בימים ההם otherwise the subject comes before the verb.


Hi Karl,

I don't know if you can say that you were wrong, because the verb indeed comes before the subject (that is also in Classic Arabic).

And as for your last statement, This is correct.
And the easiest way to see that, is through the first verse in the Bible
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

1. Description of Time - בראשית.
2. Predicate (verb) - ברא.
3. Subject - אלהים.
4. Object - את השמים ואת הארץ.

And so, if I want to say in a nice way: "the kid went to school last week",
I would say: "Last week went the kid to school".
David Hunter

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby Jason Hare » Sat May 23, 2020 8:49 am

ducky wrote:I have to say that this project is really great.
We find ourselves checking ourselves and then checking our friends and each one has his perspective and arguments about some issues.
So this is really great.
And props to Jason who started this and let us think more about the way of Hebrew by producing it and not just by reading it.

It's really enjoyable. I'm glad that we have this outlet. :)
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Postby Jason Hare » Sat May 23, 2020 8:53 am

I am thinking everyone is ready for the next piece of the exercise, so I'm posting it now:

Exercise 30
(5) And the Lord spoke unto Moses saying, ‘Why dost[a] thou cry unto Me? Speak unto them and they shall go into the midst of the sea and they shall see that I shall not forsake them.’

[a. Use the imperf. for continued action.]
Jason Hare
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