Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

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Jason Hare
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Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jason Hare » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:15 pm

Continuing with anyone who wants to join in...

(5) The woman sat under a tree and the boy with her, and she cried unto the Lord and said: ‘Save, Lord, the life (“soul”) of the boy.’
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jason Hare » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:29 pm

My contribution:

Spoiler: show
וַתֵּ֫שֶׁב הָאִשָּׁה תַּ֫חַת עֵץ וְהַנַּ֫עַר עִמָּ֑הּ וַתִּצְעַק אֶל־יַהְוֶה וַתֹּ֫אמֶר הוֹשִׁ֫יעָה יַהְוֶה אֶת־נֶ֫פֶשׁ הַנָּֽ֫עַר׃
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian

Glenn Dean
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Glenn Dean » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:01 am

Here's mine:

Spoiler: show
ישׁבה האשׁה תחת עץ והילד עמה

ובכתה אל יהוה ויאמר הושׁע יהוה אפשׁ ילד

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Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jonathan Beck » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:20 pm

Spoiler: show
וַתֵּשֶׁב הָאִשָּׁה תַּחַת עֵץ וַתּזְעַק לַיהוה וַתּאֹמֶר שְׁעַה־נָא יהוה אֶת־נֶפֶשׁ הַיֶּלֶד׃

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:00 pm

Glenn Dean wrote:ישׁבה האשׁה תחת עץ והילד עמה

Just curious if anything goes into consideration in terms of word order. Is there a reason for putting ישבה before האשה? It has been argued by John Cook (and I think I remember Buth saying the same thing) that the natural word order is subject-verb-object, and that it is overcome by syntactic and semantic restraints in many cases (such as the vav-consecutive for narrative, for example). I'm just curious because word order keeps being brought up in my hearing lately (mostly by friend Jonathan Beck).

Glenn Dean wrote:ובכתה אל יהוה ויאמר הושׁע יהוה אפשׁ ילד

בכתה is perfect, and it would be normal for the vav to switch the temporal reference, so that we would expect וַתֵּבְךְּ "and she cried" (see STEP Bible). You'll see there several examples of בכה appearing before לפני יהוה, but I don't see any of אל יהוה, which means that we should probably think that another action is in mind. Instead of crying as in weeping or mourning, it is probably crying as in calling out or shouting. In that case, we should probably see וַתִּצְעַק here.

For certain, though, the second verb in this phrase should be feminine, וַתֹּ֫אמֶר, rather than ויאמר (masculine).

I had also wanted to write הושע as an imperative for להושיע, but I found הושיעה as a consistent form for imperative when I looked it up. There is this verse, though, in which הושע is clearly used in the same way:

Jeremiah 31:7
כִּי־כֹ֣ה ׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהוָ֗ה רָנּ֤וּ לְיַֽעֲקֹב֙ שִׂמְחָ֔ה וְצַהֲל֖וּ בְּרֹ֣אשׁ הַגּוֹיִ֑ם הַשְׁמִ֤יעוּ הַֽלְלוּ֙ וְאִמְר֔וּ הוֹשַׁ֤ע יְהוָה֙ אֶֽת־עַמְּךָ֔ אֵ֖ת שְׁאֵרִ֥ית יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃

The phrase is just missing את and the article on ילד, and I'd assume that אפש is just a typo for נפש.

Nice job!
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:02 pm

Jonathan Beck wrote:וַתֵּשֶׁב הָאִשָּׁה תַּחַת עֵץ וַתּזְעַק לַיהוה וַתּאֹמֶר שְׁעַה־נָא יהוה אֶת־נֶפֶשׁ הַיֶּלֶד׃

Just missing a chirik under ותזעק, and I'm curious about שעה־נא. Do you have a verse for that? Normally, "save"/"deliver" is in the hiphil (הושיע "he saved"). The rest is great.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:13 pm

Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian

Glenn Dean
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Glenn Dean » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:49 pm

Thanxs Jason for the feedback!

On the word order, I have no idea how it is suppose to be (but, it seems it's "always" Verb-Subject-Object. BUT I have seen it go SVO, and I was told the only time you put the subject first is when you want to emphasize the subject.

I agree on bacah - right after I hit the "Submit" button I too thought "is she really 'weeping' or is she 'screaming at the Lord', but I couldn't think of any verb that connotates 'screaming' or 'yelling' so I went with bacah. I'll have to look up the word you used.

BTW, yeled versus naar - I'm not sure what the difference is,

Glenn

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:18 pm

The Hebrew Language Academy defines נַ֫עַר as אָדָם בַּגִּיל שֶׁבֵּין הַיַּלְדּוּת לַבַּגְרוּת a person at the age that is between childhood and adulthood. That said, the Bible often uses the word נער even when it is talking about a much smaller child. For example, look at the story of Moses, in which we have the following verse:

Exodus 2:6
וַתִּפְתַּח֙ וַתִּרְאֵ֣הוּ אֶת־הַיֶּ֔לֶד וְהִנֵּה־נַ֖עַר בֹּכֶ֑ה וַתַּחְמֹ֣ל עָלָ֔יו וַתֹּ֕אמֶר מִיַּלְדֵ֥י הָֽעִבְרִ֖ים זֶֽה׃
And she (the daughter of Pharoah) opened [the ark] and saw him—the child (ילד). And, behold, the young man (נער) was crying. And she had pity on him and said, "This is one of the Hebrew children."

Moses was obviously a baby at the time, yet instead of תִּינוֹק or טַף, we see him called both יֶ֫לֶד and נַ֫עַר, which are both surprising.

I don’t think there’s any issue with you choosing the one over the other. Either is fine for the exercise. I chose נער in both instances, but I could have gone either way.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian

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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.5

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:22 pm

Glenn Dean wrote:On the word order, I have no idea how it is suppose to be (but, it seems it's "always" Verb-Subject-Object. BUT I have seen it go SVO, and I was told the only time you put the subject first is when you want to emphasize the subject.

I think it's generally becoming more agreed-on to say that the natural order of Hebrew is, as in English, SVO. If you have no reason to switch that order, you should use it.

However, the majority of our literature is either prose (which uses the vav-consecutive for the narrative thread, weaving a connection between one verb and the next, for which additional information is added with other forms) and poetry (which uses word order to create contrasts and parallelism). So, the majority of examples of word order are indeed VSO because that is what happens with the vav-consecutive or with certain other subordinating conjunctions.

There's no reason for us to force the issue of word order, of course. It just seems odd to begin a verse with a perfective form without any conjunction or reason for it to be fronted. That's why I commented on it.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian


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