וַיִּשְׁאַלֵם
In modern Hebrew, what would be the most common: split words or suffixed?
Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
וישאלם is right but you need to change the Patah' in the Aleph to Qamats.
Modern Hebrew always prefers to split words.
People, while talking, prefer to "break the sentence down to "small units" so it is clear.
So it is common to say וישאל אתם
(actually שאל אתם - since the form of וישאל is not in the spoken modern Hebrew).
suffixed words are more in nice talk or in the literature (form as וישאל (with the "special" Vav) is only in poetry of high literature).
Modern Hebrew always prefers to split words.
People, while talking, prefer to "break the sentence down to "small units" so it is clear.
So it is common to say וישאל אתם
(actually שאל אתם - since the form of וישאל is not in the spoken modern Hebrew).
suffixed words are more in nice talk or in the literature (form as וישאל (with the "special" Vav) is only in poetry of high literature).
David Hunter
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
וַיִּשְׁאָלֵםducky wrote:Yes. you can write it in two words: וישאל אתם
or, you can write the verb and its object in one word
...?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
Just wanted to say that why it is וַיִּשְׁאָלֵם has to do with syllabification. The word is stressed on the final syllable: וַיִּשְׁאָלֵ֫ם, which makes the syllable with alef unaccented. Since the lamed is not doubled (with dagesh), the alef is also an open syllable. When a syllable is unaccented and open, it needs a long vowel. Hence, kamats rather than patach.ducky wrote:וישאלם is right but you need to change the Patah' in the Aleph to Qamats.
וַיִּשְׁאַל אֹתָם ← וַיִּשְׁאָלֵם
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
Jason: my translation was almost identical to yours, except I don’t bother with the vowel points.
Also I took the word for “amid” from Genesis 42:5 בתוך instead of בין
Both of us recognized the story from Genesis, and so started our translations with וירא, whereas the way Weingreen wrote the sentence, it should have started with ראה.
Karl W. Randolph.
Also I took the word for “amid” from Genesis 42:5 בתוך instead of בין
Both of us recognized the story from Genesis, and so started our translations with וירא, whereas the way Weingreen wrote the sentence, it should have started with ראה.
Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
I recommend anything written by John Cook on the narrative features of Hebrew verbs. There's no reason to slavishly translate the וַ◌ּ element in וַיַּרְא as "and he saw." It is there because that is how Hebrew expresses the narrative past, not because the conjunction actually means "and." So, I think anyone who is at the level of translating English into Hebrew should see that narrative is carried along with vav-consecutives, even from the beginning of the string. I don't see it as problematic on Weingreen's behalf. He's simply checking that we understand how narrative works.kwrandolph wrote:Both of us recognized the story from Genesis, and so started our translations with וירא, whereas the way Weingreen wrote the sentence, it should have started with ראה.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
Ok. I’m gonna get on this Weingreen thing.
Jonathan Beck
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
Thanks for the helpful information as always, Jason!Jason Hare wrote:Just wanted to say that why it is וַיִּשְׁאָלֵם has to do with syllabification. The word is stressed on the final syllable: וַיִּשְׁאָלֵ֫ם, which makes the syllable with alef unaccented. Since the lamed is not doubled (with dagesh), the alef is also an open syllable. When a syllable is unaccented and open, it needs a long vowel. Hence, kamats rather than patach.
וַיִּשְׁאַל אֹתָם ← וַיִּשְׁאָלֵם
Ste Walch
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
I have thought about it for a while, and I wanted to respond on this one. The sentence «Is it well with (ל) your old father?» has its correspondence in 2 Kings 4:26. Notice the following:S_Walch wrote:My vowel-points are likely wrong (I've spent much time with the DSS so I forget a lot of how the vowel-points are supposed to be), but here's my attempt:
- Hidden Text
עַתָּה֮ רֽוּץ־נָ֣א לִקְרָאתָהּ֒ וֶֽאֱמָר־לָ֗הּ הֲשָׁל֥וֹם לָ֛ךְ הֲשָׁל֥וֹם לְאִישֵׁ֖ךְ הֲשָׁל֣וֹם לַיָּ֑לֶד וַתֹּ֖אמֶר שָׁלֽוֹם׃
We have here several instances of asking after someone's well-being.
הֲשָׁלוֹם לָךְ - "Is it well with you?"
הֲשָׁלוֹם לְאִישֵׁךְ - "Is it well with your husband?"
הֲשָׁלוֹם לַיֶּ֫לֶד - "Is it well with the child?" (in pause as יָלֶד)
The answer is simply שָׁלוֹם in all cases.
Also, when they gave the response to Joseph, it shouldn't have the interrogative heh attached to it (הֲטוֹב).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On
(1) Joseph saw his brothers among the (ones) coming to Egypt and he drew near unto them and he asked them, saying: ‘Is it well with (ל) your old father?’ and they said, ‘It is well, and behold our small brother hath come down with us’.ו44
- Hidden Text
Last edited by Jonathan Beck on Mon May 18, 2020 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jonathan Beck
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.