B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Jonathan Beck wrote:

Hidden Text

וַיַּרְא יַעֲקֹב אֶת־רָחֵל וַיִּגַּשׁ אֵלֶיהָ וַיֹּאמֶר הֲבַּת לְמִי אַתְּ וַתֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו אַנִי הַבַּת־לָבָן וַיְדַבֵּר לָהּ יַעֲקוֹב כִּי הוּא הַבֵּן הָאָחוֹת אָבִיהָ׃

So, since we have לְמִי as an interrogative word, we don’t need the הֲ interrogative particle. It’s either one or the other. It’s enough to ask בַּת לְמִי “a daughter of whom?”

There's an issue with construct chains. Only the last word in the chain should be definite in form. Thus, הַבַּת לָבָן needs to be בַּת־לָבָן “the daughter of Laban,” but בַּת לְלָבָן would allow “a daughter of Laban.” Same with “the son of the sister of her father.” Since אָבִ֫יהָ is already definite (with the personal suffix), we would drop all of the other articles, and the alef in “sister-of” would be pointed אֲחות (for construct). Thus, we get בֶּן־אֲחוֹת אָבִ֫יהָ "son-of sister-of her-father.”

One other small thing is that after לְדַבֵּר it is לְ־ exclusively (not אֶל־), for whatever reason.

Jason Hare wrote:But, it would be cool if we could all be expected to compose in a fuller sense. I mean, go ahead and look things up for help or to compare, but do the composition yourself first .… That makes it a challenge and forces us to try to come up with it ourselves before leaning on how others or how the biblical text expresses it.

The problem with that is when I read the English sentence, and recognize even before making a translation, that that’s not how the idea is phrased in Hebrew, I then look up in Tanakh to see how that idea was phrased in the Biblical era. For example, the sentence “David brought the priest to himself …” I immediately recognized that an exact translation of Weingreen ויביא דוד את הנביא אליו is not Biblical Hebrew. My next thought was that I hadn’t made a note of how the idea was expressed in Hebrew, so I looked up an example of how David did the action expressed. Esther used the same word, קרא for the same idea.

I often start with making an initial translation in my mind, then usually rejecting it “because it doesn’t feel right”. Then I look up examples in Tanakh to make it “feel right” before tweaking it to fit the sentence from Weingreen.

Karl W. Randolph.

This is the last one from Exercise 30.

(8) Joseph saw the gift which Jacob his father sent and he took (it) from their hand and he said unto them, ‘In the evening you shall eat with me.’

(8) Joseph saw the gift which Jacob his father sent and he took (it) from their hand and he said unto them, ‘In the evening you shall eat with me.’

Here's my submission:

Hidden Text

(8) וַיַּרְא יוֹסֵף אֶת־הַמַּתָּנָה אֲשֶׁר שָׁלַח יַעֲקֹב אָבִיו וַיִּקַּח מִיָּדָם וַיֹּ֫אמֶר אֲלֵיהֶם בָּעֶ֫רֶב תֹּאכְלוּ עִמָּדִי׃

Notice the new thread for the new exercise: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22410

Did you guys miss the new thread?

Quickly post mine of this for review:

Hidden Text

ראה יוסף את־המנחה אשר שלח אביו יעקוב ויקחה מידם ויאמר אליהם בערב תאכלו עמי

רָאָה יוֹסֵף אֶת־הַמִּנְחָה אֲשֶׁר שָׁלַח אָבִיו יַעֲקוֹב וַיּקָּחֶהָ מִיָּדָם וְיֹאמֶר אֲלֵיהֶם בָּעֶרֶב תֹאכְלוּ עִמִי

Hi, Ste!

Since it says "Jacob his father," I think the appositive would best present the name and then the identifier. Wouldn't you agree? That is, יעקב אביו rather than אביו יעקב. It also sounds more natural.

If you want to use עמי for "with me," it should have a dagesh in the mem (עִמִּי). It is geminate, the root being עמ״ם. Similarly, עַמִּי "my people" is geminite. I wonder what the statistics are of uses of עמי versus עמדי. My heart goes toward עמדי because of Psalm 23 "I shall fear no evil, for thou art with me."
I grew up in the countryside of rural Missouri, and sometimes I ended up walking on dark roads late at night, and reciting Psalm 23 calmed my nerves when I was afraid of something popping up out of the dark. As soon as I learned Hebrew, this was one of the first passages that I committed to memory, so עמדי has stuck with me since then.

Jason Hare wrote:Hi, Ste!

Since it says "Jacob his father," I think the appositive would best present the name and then the identifier. Wouldn't you agree? That is, יעקב אביו rather than אביו יעקב. It also sounds more natural.

Indeed. I'll have a look through the Tanakh to get a statistic for how often such a sequence occurs.

If you want to use עמי for "with me," it should have a dagesh in the mem (עִמִּי). It is geminate, the root being עמ״ם. Similarly, עַמִּי "my people" is geminite.

Knew there'd be something in the niqqud I'd forget. Least it's only one thing this time! Getting better.

I wonder what the statistics are of uses of עמי versus עמדי.

Ooo, something right up my street!

עִם - used 1,048 times in the Tanakh, starting at Genesis 3:6 through to Zechariah 14:5.
עִמָּד - used 45 times in the Tanakh: Gen 3:12; Gen 19:19; Gen 20:9; Gen 20:13; Gen 21:23; Gen 28:20; Gen 29:19; Gen 29:27; Gen 31:5; Gen 31:7; Gen 31:32; Gen 35:3; Gen 40:14; Gen 47:29; Exod 17:2; Lev 25:23; Deut 5:31; Deut 32:34; Deut 32:39; Judg 17:10; Ruth 1:8; 1 Sam 10:2; 1 Sam 20:14; 1 Sam 20:28; 1 Sam 22:23; 2 Sam 10:2; 2 Sam 19:34; Ps 23:4; Ps 50:11; Ps 55:19; Ps 101:6; Job 6:4; Job 9:35; Job 10:12; Job 10:17; Job 13:19; Job 13:20; Job 17:2; Job 23:6; Job 23:10; Job 28:14; Job 29:5; Job 29:6; Job 29:20; Job 31:13.

My heart goes toward עמדי because of Psalm 23 "I shall fear no evil, for thou art with me."

גַּ֤ם כִּֽי־אֵלֵ֨ךְ בְּגֵ֪יא צַלְמָ֡וֶת לֹֽא־אִ֘ירָ֤א רָ֗ע כִּֽי־אַתָּ֥ה עִמָּדִ֑י
שִׁבְטְךָ֥ וּ֝מִשְׁעַנְתֶּ֗ךָ הֵ֣מָּה יְנַֽחֲמֻֽנִי׃

I grew up in the countryside of rural Missouri, and sometimes I ended up walking on dark roads late at night, and reciting Psalm 23 calmed my nerves when I was afraid of something popping up out of the dark. As soon as I learned Hebrew, this was one of the first passages that I committed to memory, so עמדי has stuck with me since then.

Love anecdotes like this. It's definitely a go-to Psalm for many people.