Just History - Babylon and Jeremiah 51

[Chris Watts]

Keeping it very short, Jeremiah 51 and history do not seem to agree. Babylon, the city, seems to have been still in place and very much inhabited well into the 2nd century AD. Though destroyed as an empire, and no doubt parts of the city in ruins, the description in Jer 51 goes well beyond any of this and does not accord with any historical documenting text as written by the ancient historians. Considering also that Cyrus did not destroy Babylon as many are led to believe. Maybe this curious ending to Peter's letter when he says he writes from Babylon truly is the physical reality? However it is recorded by a historian (I forget who as this was many months ago) that by the 2nd century AD babylon truly was just ruins.

Comments?

Chris watts

[Jason Hare]

Keeping it very short, Jeremiah 51 and history do not seem to agree. Babylon, the city, seems to have been still in place and very much inhabited well into the 2nd century AD. Though destroyed as an empire, and no doubt parts of the city in ruins, the description in Jer 51 goes well beyond any of this and does not accord with any historical documenting text as written by the ancient historians. Considering also that Cyrus did not destroy Babylon as many are led to believe. Maybe this curious ending to Peter's letter when he says he writes from Babylon truly is the physical reality? However it is recorded by a historian (I forget who as this was many months ago) that by the 2nd century AD babylon truly was just ruins.

Which historians are you consulting regarding the history of Babylon? I’ve not really gone over the history of the city, but the larger of the Talmudim is the Babylonian Talmud, and there are still survivors of Babylonian Judaism in Israel today. Do you have references specifically?

[Jason Hare]

From Wikipedia, I’m surprised to see that Alexander the Great made the city great and that it continued even after him:

Under Alexander, Babylon again flourished as a center of learning and commerce. However, following Alexander's death in 323 BC in the palace of Nebuchadnezzar, his empire was divided amongst his generals, the Diadochi, and decades of fighting soon began. Babylon declined somewhat in importance but remained active throughout this period.

Also this:

However, Babylon maintained its own culture and people, who spoke varieties of Aramaic, and who continued to refer to their homeland as Babylon. Examples of their culture are found in the Babylonian Talmud, the Gnostic Mandaean religion, Eastern Rite Christianity and the religion of the philosopher Mani. Christianity was introduced to Mesopotamia in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and Babylon was the seat of a Bishop of the Church of the East until well after the Arab/Islamic conquest. Coins from the Parthian, Sasanian and Arabic periods excavated in Babylon demonstrate the continuity of settlement there.

I’m intrigued by the question. I also had assumed, based on the prophetic portions of the Bible, that Babylon just suffered destruction and was gone, but it survived up until the Muslim conquest.

[Chris Watts]

To be honest Jason I have been coming across this reference and that reference over the last couple of years. Each one had an ancient historian's account and was used by various writers to paint a picture of continual habitation even in the roman times. I never kept any records and the places I read them were usually buried in PDFs about another topic that I was reading about so never gave any real attention to it. It was not until I started reading Jeremiah 51 just a little more carefully than usual that It occured to me that this did not happen in Cyrus's day. I only posted this to see if anyone had any more detailed resources I could read. However I will over the coming week do some little more hunting and see if I can find some accounts. But it is clear that Alexander made it his capital, it is also clear that Cyrus did not destroy Babylon because his policy differed from Nebuchadnezzar's in that he chose to allow the conquered peoples both their freedom of religion and their freedom. He also did not want to inflame other religions politically. These are all general observations I have read over the years. Anyway give me time to find actual references. Oh just for starters I am sure everyone knows about this:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... -0617-1941

That Cyrus actually Rebuilt not destroyed the city...

chris watts

[kwrandolph]

Christ: “Babylon” wasn’t just the city, but included the province in which the city was sited. So when Peter wrote from Babylon (1 Peter 5:13) he referenced the province, not just the city.

As for Jeremiah in chapter 51, he referenced actions that will happen in the future, not in his day.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Chris Watts]

Christ: “Babylon” wasn’t just the city, but included the province in which the city was sited. So when Peter wrote from Babylon (1 Peter 5:13) he referenced the province, not just the city.

As for Jeremiah in chapter 51, he referenced actions that will happen in the future, not in his day.

Karl W. Randolph.

For once I agree with you Karl. I suspected that this be the future. I realise that Babylon included the whole of the province, in the same way one would say that Cairo came under the power of England in 1882, despite arab gangs to the east, Cairo represented Egypt, yet not really subdued by London, more just in charge so to speak, (even while officially it belonged to the Ottomans). However my main concern was to find evidence that Babylon, the city, still remained intact and was not the habitation of wild animals and screaming jackals. I am looking for written historical accounts besides those about Cyrus and Alexander that take us to the time when it really did fall into total ruin and became emptied of people commerce and trade.

Chris watts