Sira 1

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Saboi
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Sira 1

Postby Saboi » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:59 pm

Sira 1
1 כל חכמת אצל יהוה וסמו היא לעולם
2 חול ימים ונטפי מים וימות עולם מה יספר
3 גבה שמים ורחבה ארץ ותהום וחכמה מה יחקר
4 לפניה כל הוסדה חכמת ובינת ערמה מן עולם
6 שרש חכמה נגלה ומרעותה מה וידעה
8 להיא חכם נורא מאד ישב על כסאו
9 יהוה הוא ויבראה וירא וימספרמה שפכה על כל מעשיו
10 עם כל בשר כמתנו ויצחה לאהביו
11 יראת יהוה כבוד תפארת ושמחה ועטרת מגילת
12 יראת יהוה יתרוע ולב ויתן שמחה וששון וארך ימים

tbh
Lee Mcgee

ducky
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Sira 1

Postby ducky » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:33 am

Hi

Don't know where you took this translation from
but some of the words in the form that they are written don't fit the grammar nor the syntax
David Hunter

Saboi
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: Sira 1

Postby Saboi » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:47 pm

This is a very mechanical and rough reverse-translation, Sirach contains unique verbs and noun not found elsewhere in the LXX comparable to the MSS text.

ὕψος οὐρανοῦ καὶ πλάτος γῆς καὶ ἄβυσσον καὶ σοφίαν τίς ἐξιχνιάσει
גבה שמים ורחבה ארץ ותהום וחכמה מי יחקר

- Heights of heaven גבה שמים
- breadth of earth רחבה ארץ
- ocean תהום
- wisdom חכמה
- Who can search/seek/find מי יחקר

(compare)
Jeremiah 31:37 (compare)
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath.

Ecclesiastes 7:24
That which is far off, and exceeding deep, who can find it out?
Last edited by Saboi on Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lee Mcgee

Saboi
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: Sira 1

Postby Saboi » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:34 pm

τίς ἐξιχνιάσει > מי יחקר "who can seek-out" (not מה)
- Job 38:16 - hast thou walked in the search (חקר/ἴχνεσιν) of the depth?

A similar word is יבקר, but this translates into ἱστορεῖ "inquire into, examine, give an account", In(ב) + quaero (קרא) "Inquire". The other is יבקש that is ἐπιζητεῖ "seek after, wish for, miss, request". Thus יחקר be the word they translated.

πλάτος > רחבה
Europe so named for being flat & broad. (פן-רחב > Εὐρώπη)
*πλατύ (λ/ר, ατ/ח, ύ/ב) = lătus *לוח/πλάξ.

οὐρανοῦ > שמים
שם/σᾶμα > σαμεῖον/שמים > cēlum (c/ש, l/מ, um/ים) > οὐραν (ou/ש/c)
> skeujam (j/m) > Sky. himinn(h/ש) > Heaven.

ὕψος > גבה
(ϝ)ὕψος ϝ/ג (húps)
Lee Mcgee

Saboi
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: Sira 1

Postby Saboi » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:06 am

2.
ἄμμον θαλασσῶν καὶ σταγόνας ὑετοῦ καὶ ἡμέρας αἰῶνος τίς ἐξαριθμήσει
חול ימים ונטפי מטיר וימות עולם מי יספר

comparisons

Job 38:37
Who can number the rain-drops of wisdom? (מי־יספר שחקים בחכמה)
Who can sleep on the clouds of heaven? (ונבלי שמים מי ישכיב)

(refinement)
שחקים > ψακάδας "droplets of rain"
נבלי > νεφέλας "mass of clouds"
ישכיב > κοίμα "lull, put to sleep"

ונטפי מטיר "Drops of Rain" (σταγόνας ὑετοῦ) cf. στάζω/אטפ.
מטיר/νοτερός "storm of rain, moisture"
גשם/ψακάς "drops of rain"

I translate ἐξαριθμήσει into יספר, however the verse is to do with Sand (ἄμμον), so the word in the Greek is not a good translation, the choice word aught to be ψηφιεῖ/יספר "count, reckon", for the noun form, ψᾶφος mean "pebble used for counting", this relates too ψάμμος "sand" cf. ἄμμος.

Parallel
Genesis 41:49 - Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number.

לספר/ψηφίζειν (infinitive)
מספר/ψήφισμα (ψάφιγμα) "that which is counted, a measure passed by a popular assembly"

This is how Joseph was so-named, cf. יסף/ψηφίσηται cf. Ψαμμήτιχος (ψάφ-, Ψαμ-)
Lee Mcgee

ducky
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Sira 1

Postby ducky » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:31 am

Hello

Since this first chapter is not found in Hebrew
you cannot translate it back to Hebrew and then give conclusions about the Hebrew of Ben Sirah

you can learn his tongue only from the authentic Hebrew scripts which there are many

And also, as I sai, I don't know who made this translation but there are mistakes in the forms and syntax even though the idea is mostly fine
David Hunter


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