Pirkei Avot - For Reading and Discussion

For discussion of post-biblical Hebrew texts and/or comparison to biblical Hebrew structure and lexis.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Pirkei Avot - For Reading and Discussion

Post by Jason Hare »

Glenn Dean wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:47 am On the word הַמְשַׁמְּשִׁין, why does it end in a nun? I would of expected מִשְׁתַּמְּשִׁים (i.e. ending in a mem)

Glenn
It is a common masculine plural ending in Aramaic, and it has an influence in rabbinic Hebrew. In the Mishnah, we may find either מְלָכִים or מְלָכִין with the same meaning.
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Jason Hare
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Re: Pirkei Avot - For Reading and Discussion

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Glenn Dean wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:59 am עַל־מְנָת that's not the verb "to count", but the noun מָנָה in construct?
We should just consider it a preposition/conjunction, much the same as כְּדֵי, meaning “in order to.” It is followed by an infinitive, in the same way that ἵνα is followed by the subjunctive in Greek—in a purpose clause. We might find כְּדֵי followed by a relative clause with an imperfect verb to represent the same sense as the purpose clause in Greek (כְּדֵי שֶׁתָּבִ֫ינוּ “so that you might understand” = ἵνα συνιῆτε). כְּדֵי can be followed either by the infinitive (כְּדֵי לְהָבִין) or by the imperfect in a relative clause (כְּדֵי שֶׁתָּבִין), but עַל־מְנָת can only be followed by the infinitive.

Fantastic question!
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Glenn Dean
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Re: Pirkei Avot - For Reading and Discussion

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Jason Hare wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:42 pm It is a common masculine plural ending in Aramaic, and it has an influence in rabbinic Hebrew. In the Mishnah, we may find either מְלָכִים or מְלָכִין with the same meaning.
Interesting! Do we see this nun-ending in Daniel - that might be fun to look over Dan Ch. 2 - thru - 9 since they are in Aramaic (if I remember correctly)

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Re: Pirkei Avot - For Reading and Discussion

Post by Glenn Dean »

Jason Hare wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:49 pm We should just consider it a preposition/conjunction, much the same as כְּדֵי, meaning “in order to.” It is followed by an infinitive, in the same way that ἵνα is followed by the subjunctive in Greek—in a purpose clause. We might find כְּדֵי followed by a relative clause with an imperfect verb to represent the same sense as the purpose clause in Greek (כְּדֵי שֶׁתָּבִ֫ינוּ “so that you might understand” = ἵνα συνιῆτε). כְּדֵי can be followed either by the infinitive (כְּדֵי לְהָבִין) or by the imperfect in a relative clause (כְּדֵי שֶׁתָּבִין), but עַל־מְנָת can only be followed by the infinitive.

Fantastic question!
Ah, ok that makes sense - that's why we see the infinitive לְקַבֵּל following עַל־מְנָת.

Really makes a BIG difference in one's translation (in knowing to translate as "in order to"), because otherwise you end up with what I originally had: "on share of to receive a reward" :lol:

Glenn
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Jason Hare
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Re: Pirkei Avot - For Reading and Discussion

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Glenn Dean wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:57 am
Jason Hare wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:42 pm It is a common masculine plural ending in Aramaic, and it has an influence in rabbinic Hebrew. In the Mishnah, we may find either מְלָכִים or מְלָכִין with the same meaning.
Interesting! Do we see this nun-ending in Daniel - that might be fun to look over Dan Ch. 2 - thru - 9 since they are in Aramaic (if I remember correctly)

Glenn
Well, look at the phrase used for “Ancient of Days” in Daniel 7, for example. It is עַתִּיק יוֹמִין (Daniel 7:9). This appears in two verses later in the chapter in the emphatic state: עַתִּיק יוֹמַיָּא. In the following verse it says that סִפְרִין פְּתִ֫יחוּ “books were opened,” which would be סְפָרִים נִפְתְּחוּ.
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Glenn Dean
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Re: Pirkei Avot - For Reading and Discussion

Post by Glenn Dean »

Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:02 pm Well, look at the phrase used for “Ancient of Days” in Daniel 7, for example. It is עַתִּיק יוֹמִין (Daniel 7:9). This appears in two verses later in the chapter in the emphatic state: עַתִּיק יוֹמַיָּא. In the following verse it says that סִפְרִין פְּתִ֫יחוּ “books were opened,” which would be סְפָרִים נִפְתְּחוּ.
NICE!! Perfect examples!
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