When was the book of Daniel written?

[Jason Hare]

You both agree that the word to return Jerusalem and build it was 490 years before Masada.
But Jason says this word was 49 years before Cyrus and Karl to something very different.
I do not know what word Jason is referring to, so that is why I brought this up for the 2nd time.

I don't think I mentioned Cyrus...

[SteveMiller]

You both agree that the word to return Jerusalem and build it was 490 years before Masada.
But Jason says this word was 49 years before Cyrus and Karl to something very different.
I do not know what word Jason is referring to, so that is why I brought this up for the 2nd time.

I don't think I mentioned Cyrus...

Then I misunderstood. Who is the messiah nagid?

[Jason Hare]

Then I misunderstood. Who is the messiah nagid?

Well, I didn't say that I don't think that it's referring to Cyrus. I just didn't mention that before.

דבר is a reference to the word of prophecy through Jeremiah regarding the rebuilding of the city. The count actually starts before Cryus, and Cyrus appears within the count.

משיח נגיד is Cyrus, who ordered the rebuilding of the city. Again, though, the "word" refers to the prophetic word, not to Cyrus's order.

משיח that is cut off is either Agrippa, who was king at the time of the destruction (as Rashi interprets it), or perhaps Pinhas ben Shmuel (Phannias ben Samuel), who was high priest at the time of the Temple's destruction. Either king or priest could be considered משיח.

נגיד הבא is Titus or his father Vespasian.

[SteveMiller]

Then I misunderstood. Who is the messiah nagid?

Well, I didn't say that I don't think that it's referring to Cyrus. I just didn't mention that before.

דבר is a reference to the word of prophecy through Jeremiah regarding the rebuilding of the city. The count actually starts before Cryus, and Cyrus appears within the count.

משיח נגיד is Cyrus, who ordered the rebuilding of the city. Again, though, the "word" refers to the prophetic word, not to Cyrus's order.

משיח that is cut off is either Agrippa, who was king at the time of the destruction (as Rashi interprets it), or perhaps Pinhas ben Shmuel (Phannias ben Samuel), who was high priest at the time of the Temple's destruction. Either king or priest could be considered משיח.

נגיד הבא is Titus or his father Vespasian.

Thanks Jason. Where in the Tanach did Jeremiah prophesy about the rebuilding of the city?

[Jason Hare]

Thanks Jason. Where in the Tanach did Jeremiah prophesy about the rebuilding of the city?

It doesn't say "rebuild the city" in those words, but it says:

Jeremiah 29:10

כִּֽי־כֹה֙ אָמַ֣ר יַהְוֶ֔ה כִּ֠י לְפִ֞י מְלֹ֧את לְבָבֶ֛ל שִׁבְעִ֥ים שָׁנָ֖ה אֶפְקֹ֣ד אֶתְכֶ֑ם וַהֲקִֽמֹתִ֤י עֲלֵיכֶם֙ אֶת־דְּבָרִ֣י הַטּ֔וֹב לְהָשִׁ֣יב אֶתְכֶ֔ם אֶל־הַמָּק֖וֹם הַזֶּֽה׃

It uses the word דבר ("my good word" = דברי הטוב) and להשיב ("to return"), just as Daniel does. We know that Daniel was reading this prophecy of Jeremiah regarding "seventy years," so it only makes sense that the angel was telling him that "from the issuing of the word to restore and build Jerusalem" (that is, from the time when the prophecy was issued from Jeremiah) until an anointed one (Cyrus) would be seven weeks. And so on.

[SteveMiller]

Thanks Jason. Where in the Tanach did Jeremiah prophesy about the rebuilding of the city?

It doesn't say "rebuild the city" in those words, but it says:

Jeremiah 29:10

כִּֽי־כֹה֙ אָמַ֣ר יַהְוֶ֔ה כִּ֠י לְפִ֞י מְלֹ֧את לְבָבֶ֛ל שִׁבְעִ֥ים שָׁנָ֖ה אֶפְקֹ֣ד אֶתְכֶ֑ם וַהֲקִֽמֹתִ֤י עֲלֵיכֶם֙ אֶת־דְּבָרִ֣י הַטּ֔וֹב לְהָשִׁ֣יב אֶתְכֶ֔ם אֶל־הַמָּק֖וֹם הַזֶּֽה׃

It uses the word דבר ("my good word" = דברי הטוב) and להשיב ("to return"), just as Daniel does. We know that Daniel was reading this prophecy of Jeremiah regarding "seventy years," so it only makes sense that the angel was telling him that "from the issuing of the word to restore and build Jerusalem" (that is, from the time when the prophecy was issued from Jeremiah) until an anointed one (Cyrus) would be seven weeks. And so on.

Jason, thanks for answering.
Jer 29:1 says that Jeremiah sent this letter after King Jeconiah was taken captive (29:1-2), which would be the 9th year of the 70 year captivity. That would be 61 years before Cyrus, not 49 as required by your interpretation.

[kwrandolph]

When did the 70 year Babylonian Exile start? My understanding from passages like 2 Chronicles 36:20–21 that it started the year the first temple was burned. That sort of fits in with the subject of this thread, of when the book of Daniel was written. I personally think that Daniel wrote it in his retirement, though he had Nebuchadnezzar’s account in chapter 4.

Karl W. Randolph.

[R.J. Furuli]

Dear Karl,

Karl wrote:

When did the 70 year Babylonian Exile start? My understanding from passages like 2 Chronicles 36:20–21 that it started the year the first temple was burned. That sort of fits in with the subject of this thread, of when the book of Daniel was written. I personally think that Daniel wrote it in his retirement, though he had Nebuchadnezzar’s account in chapter 4.

I agree with you regarding the beginning of the 70 years of exile. As you show, 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21 says that the land should be a desolate waste for a full 70 years. The same is true with Daniel 9:2, and numerous passages in Jeremiah. Because the universal view of archaeologists and historians is that Jerusalem was desolate for only about 50 years (49 years), some persons has argued for an earlier start of the 70 years than the year when the temple was destroyed and the people left the land. But such a view contradicts a great number of sayings in the Tanach. Moreover, there are lots of historical cuneiform evidence and astronomical cuneiform evidence that support an exile of 70 years.

Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

[SteveMiller]

Could the 70 year captivity have begun with the first carrying away by Nebuchadnezzar in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim (Dan 1:1-2), when some of the vessels of the temple were carried away, and when Daniel was carried away captive? That was 19 years before the complete destruction of the temple in the 10th year of Zedekiah.

[kwrandolph]

Could the 70 year captivity have begun with the first carrying away by Nebuchadnezzar in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim (Dan 1:1-2), when some of the vessels of the temple were carried away, and when Daniel was carried away captive? That was 19 years before the complete destruction of the temple in the 10th year of Zedekiah.

No. Nebuchadnezzar arrived in Judea in the third year, but when cross-referencing to other passages, he didn’t capture Jerusalem itself until the 11th year of Jehoiakim. Then reading 2 Chronicles 36 further, that was 11 years before the final destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar.

In ancient times, sieges of cities could often last years. Even over a decade. Cities tried to store enough food to outlast a siege. Further, how long did it take for Nebuchadnezzar to pacify the countryside and outlying fortified cities before he moved against Jerusalem itself? So an eight year siege by Nebuchadnezzar’s troops is not out of the question.

The picture I get is that Daniel was around 90 years old when he was in the court of Cyrus the Great and finally retired. He was probably over 70 when thrown in the lions’ den. He apparently retired the first time before Babylon fell to Cyrus, only to be pulled out of retirement to serve the Medes and Persians until he was in his 90s.

Karl W. Randolph.