Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

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SteveMiller
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby SteveMiller » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:34 pm

BHS and Stone Tanach reads same as what Kirk posted for Leningrad Codex.
The Schottenstein Edition of Tehillim pub by Mesorah Publications, Ltd reads ימרוךand נשוא.
DSS 11QPsA reads יא̇מרוך̇and נש̇א̇ו.

BHS footnotes also mentions:
1 frt ונשאו cf Vrs
prb 1 c mlt Mss עדיך; prp עליך

Can someone help me understand these footnotes?
The "frt" is a Latin abbrev for fortasse meaning perhaps.
Vrs means all or most versions
prb means probably
prp is abbrev for Latin propositum, which seems to mean a proposed guess, but google translate says propositum means goal.
What does the number 1 mean and the letter c?

Thanks
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Schubert
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby Schubert » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:45 pm

Can someone help me understand these footnotes?
The "frt" is a Latin abbrev for fortasse meaning perhaps.
Vrs means all or most versions
prb means probably
prp is abbrev for Latin propositum, which seems to mean a proposed guess, but google translate says propositum means goal.
What does the number 1 mean and the letter c?


Steve,
I'm not an expert on these matters but the first page or so on this website appears to answer your question (and my curiosity): https://sites.google.com/site/toolsforstudyingthehebrewbible/critical-editions. (hopefully this copy/paste url will work)
John McKinnon

Joseph
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby Joseph » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:53 pm

l is an abbreviation of "lege" meaning "reads"
c is an abbreviation of "cum" meaning "with"

20a ε παρεπικρανον σε, l ("reads," i.e. they are translating the Greek back into Hebrew)....
20b l ("reads") frt ("probably") ... cf ("compare") vrs ("most versions")
20c prb ("probably") l ("reads") c ("with") mlt ("many") mss ("manuscripts") ...; prp ("editor proposes")

hope that helps
Joseph Coates

Joseph
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby Joseph » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:01 pm

Oh, you might want to check out Paul Tanner's website. http://paultanner.org

He posted his Hebrew syntax online... it has a helpful appendix for understanding BHS footnotes.

http://paultanner.org/English%20Docs/He ... 0Appar.pdf
Joseph Coates

kwrandolph
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby kwrandolph » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:51 pm

Kenneth Greifer wrote:In "The Jerusalem Bible" by Koren Publishing and in the Soncino Press "The Psalms", Psalm 139:20 says ירמוך and נשוא.
In every other book I have seen, it says יאמרך and נשא. Which is the usual Masoretic text? Or are both?

Kenneth Greifer


Kenneth:

You have opened a can of worms.

Let’s look at actual examples of this verse:

Qumran 11QPs, col XX

אשר יאמרוך למזמה נשאו לשוא עריך

Aleppo Codex:

אשר ימרוך למזמה    נשוא לשוא עריך

WLC:

אשׁר יאמרך למזמה נשׂא לשׁוא עריך

A version called MapM (Miqra al pi hMasurah) has the same as the Aleppo.

So which one is correct? Which one makes the most sense?

Of the three, the one that seems to make the most sense in context is Qumran, though WLC is closer in meaning to Qumran than is Aleppo. None are an easy read from an English background.

I notice that previous answers really go into the minutiae of the BHS critical notes, I find it easier just to compare whole verses where they are found. Are there other readings that can be added to these?

Just my 2¢.

Karl W. Randolph.

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:53 pm

Karl,

If you have time, maybe you could put your own translations for the different versions. I can't imagine how you will translate יאמרך.
Kenneth Greifer

kwrandolph
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby kwrandolph » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:11 am

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Karl,

If you have time, maybe you could put your own translations for the different versions. I can't imagine how you will translate יאמרך.


Kenneth:

If you really want to understand verse 20, you need to take it in context with verse 19. In all versions I checked, verse 19 is the same:

אם-תקטל אלוה רשע    ואנשי דמים סורו מני

Right away, we have a problem; what does קטל mean? In Aramaic it meant “to put to death” and is used four times in Daniel with that meaning. Did it have the same meaning in Biblical Hebrew?

It’s used three times as a verb in Hebrew, once as a participle/noun.

The next question is רשע, does this refer to the actor—one who acts wickedly̦—or to the action—doing wickedness? In view of the rest of the verse, and the following verse, does that not indicate there here we deal with the action—doing wickedness—and not the actor? How does that affect our understanding of קטל? How does one “put to death” an action except very poetically?

What about מני? Is this poetic for ממני? Or does the phrase mean “even the bloody men who take away my portion”?

Either way, that second phrase indicates that we should look for plural verbs in verse 20, which only the Qumran reading consistently gives us.

Verse 20:

Qumran: “who (bloody men) speak a plan concerning you, who raise up for no good reason those who would leave you a pile of ruins.”

Aleppo: “who (bloody men) defy you for a plan, raised up (singular) for no good reason those who would leave you a pile of ruins.”

WLC: (verbs are singular where we should expect plurals) “who (bloody men?) speaks a plan concerning you, who raises up for no good reason those who would leave you a pile of ruins.”

Now I’m thinking through my fingers as I write this, and expect a lot of corrections and/or negative responses to what I wrote. I have been thinking about those questions, and have come to no definite conclusion concerning them.

Now do you see how difficult it is to write a dictionary?

Just my 2¢.

Karl W. Randolph.

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:11 pm

Karl,

Thank you for your translations. I am not going to say you are wrong because I am still working on my own alternative translations, although I have some ideas already. I have decided not to give my wacky alternative translations here, except I'll say that I think this whole verse is messed up pretty bad. I think the Aleppo codex has the better version, but it is messed up too.
Kenneth Greifer

Jemoh66
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Re: Psalm 139:20 Masoretic text

Postby Jemoh66 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:47 pm

I don't see any real difference between them. Basically the first part I would translate

who plot against you

Or

who speak to you with an ulterior motive
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary


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