Primitive roots

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Re: Primitive roots

Postby kwrandolph » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:27 am

Schubert wrote:I'd been following this thread with some confusion about the relevance of equating BH words with Greek words. I was uncertain whether or not my lack of clarity about the discussion was the result of a failure to understand some underlying issue. If there is some underlying issue, it would be helpful for me to have it spelled out.


There’s no relevance to equating BH words with Greek words. At times there are similarities, but more often differences outweigh similarities. What similarities there are can either be attributed to loan words or even just chance. One of the clues that we deal with loan words is that the BH word has no verbal or “primitive” root in Hebrew.

Even comparing close cognate languages can be problematic, for example שכח in BH means “to forget” while in Aramaic, a close cognate language, it means “to find”. Comparing across language families just doesn’t make sense.

The gold standard in the evaluation of any language is how it is actually used. Even those using standard linguistic practices who disagree with me on particulars or some of my conclusions, yet they agree with me on methodology. I use exactly the same methodology in evaluating and learning modern languages as I use in studying and learning Biblical Hebrew. In both, the etymological fallacy is to be avoided.

Karl W. Randolph.

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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Primitive roots

Postby kwrandolph » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:13 am

Dear Lee McGee:

There’s a person who posts more messages on this list than do I, yet when I look and see that he’s the author of a post, I ignore and skip over that post without reading it. If he starts a thread, I refuse to open that thread. That’s why I never answer his posts, because I no longer read them. (This post may be when Isaac Fried learns why I never respond to anything that he writes.)

The reason I ignore his posts? It’s because his whole schtick is based on the etymological fallacy. And not the standard etymological fallacy for Biblical Hebrew, looking for a triliteral root. I tried showing him from giving examples from actual use that his theory doesn’t fit the real world, but he refused to listen. I then decided that it would be best just to ignore him.

From the above posts, it appears that you subscribe to an etymological fallacy, one that goes beyond what even Isaac Fried pushes. One of the problems within Biblical Hebrew is that there are many words that are written the same, but come from different roots, and that’s just the words that have etymological roots. All languages have homonyms that sound the same, but have very different meanings. Written Biblical Hebrew doesn’t include the vowels (the vowels we find in written copies comes from a later time over a thousand years after the last native speaker of Biblical Hebrew passed away) so it has even more homographs. Just because two or more words sound or are written the same, does NOT automatically mean that they come from the same root. For example, in English, we have four different words from different roots pronounced tū with three different spellings because English isn’t spelled phonetically. The word “strike” has two roots, a true homonym. And now you’re trying to say that words from different languages because they sound the same or similar therefore have the same roots? Don’t you see that sometimes you ignore how words are actually used in order to support your theory?

So if your whole schtick is etymology, including the etymological fallacy, should I ignore you too?

Karl W. Randolph.

Posts: 922
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Primitive roots

Postby kwrandolph » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:47 am

Saboi wrote:I studied the Septuagint alongside the MT and did a word by word comparison
and that how i noticed how seemingly similar they are, word and grammar.

This sentence proves that you didn’t study the MT.

The grammars are very different—koiné Greek’s verbs are conjugated according to tense, Biblical Hebrew’s conjugations are modal. That’s just the beginning of differences.

Then many of the words that you claim are equivalent because of their similarity in sound have very different definitions. So you change definitions in order to force square pegs into round holes. Some of the words don’t even sound the same nor can be made to have similarities through recognized linguistic substitution patterns.

From now on, I should just ignore you, and encourage others also to ignore you. Do you agree?

Karl W. Randolph.

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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: Primitive roots

Postby Saboi » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:06 am

This is how i compare MT and LXX

- 2 Chronicles 2:1-
ו - καὶ Conjunction
יאמר - εἶπεν Verb 3rd Person Singular aorist
שלמה - Σαλωμων - Noun Singular masculine
ל - τοῦ - Article singular Neuter accusative
בנות- οἰκοδομῆσαι - Verb aorist
בית - οἶκον - Noun Singular masculine
ל - τῷ - Article singular Neuter Dative
שם - ὀνόματι - Noun singular Neutral dative
יהוה - κυρίου - Noun singular masculine
ו - καὶ Conjunction
בית - οἶκον Noun Singular masculine
ל - τῇ Noun Singular Feminine
מלכות - βασιλείᾳ Noun singular feminine dative
ו - αὐτοῦ - Adjective singular

- 1 Kings 7:13-
ו - καὶ
ישלח - ἀπέστειλε
ה - ὁ -
מלך - βασιλεὺς
שלמה - Σαλωμων
ו - καὶ
יקח - ἔλαβεν
את - τὸν
חירם - Χιραμ
מ - ἐκ
צר - Τύρου

-Matthew 6:9-
אב - Πάτερ
נו - ἡμῶν
ה - ὁ
ἐν - ב
את - τοῖς
שמים - οὐρανοῖς

Matthew 6:11 (reconstructed)
לחםינו סגלה תנו־לנו היום

Exodus 26:31
ו - καὶ
עשית - ποιήσεις
פרכת - καταπέτασμα
ת - ἐξ
כלת - ὑακίνθου
ו - καὶ
ארגמן - πορφύρας
ו - καὶ
תולעת - κοκκίνου
שני - κεκλωσμένου
ו - καὶ
שש - βύσσου
משזר - νενησμένης
מעשה - ἔργον
חשב - ὑφαντὸν
יעשה - ποιήσεις
אתה - αὐτὸ
כרבים - χερουβιμ
Lee Mcgee

Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: Primitive roots

Postby Saboi » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:36 am

His House
ביתו *ϝικ
בית אתו * οἶκος αὑτς

Her House
ביתה *ϝικ
בית אתה * οἶκος αὑτς

Genesis 24:4 "Ask Her" : אשאל אתה - ἠρώτησα αὐτὴν
Genesis 31:35 "To Her Father" : אל־אבי־ה - τῷ־πατρὶ־αὐτς

"To Him"

לאמ : λεῶν
לוֹן : λαόν * Land
נו : ῷν e.g. לבנון/λιβάνων * κόλπονων
νομός , νέμω

כי - ὅτι "That"
כה - οὕτως "Thus
גם - γοῦν "Well" (γέ + οὖν )
אמנה - ἦ μήν , εἶ μάν "verily, truly"
מקץ - μεθ /μετά "after that"
קץ - ἐθ/ἔτ "Yet"
יהי - ἰοί "become"
Lee Mcgee

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