Isaiah 9:6

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Isaiah 9:6

Postby Saboi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:25 pm

The word "Born" (ילד) and Given (נתן) in the Septuagint are past tense.

1. ἐγεννήθη - verb 3rd sg aor ind pass attic ionic
2. ἐδόθη - verb 3rd sg aor ind pass

ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν : ילד־לנו " Was Born to us"
ἐδόθη ἡμῖν : נתן־לנו "Was Given to us"

Isaiah 35:2 - ἐδόθη αὐτῇ : נתן־לה "Was given to her" ( KJV - shall be given unto it)
Acts 7:20 - ἐγεννήθη Μωυσῆς : יולד־משה "Moses was born"

Isaiah 9:14 - Therefore the Lord had cut off ( KJV - will cut off ) - ἀφεῖλεν/ כרת
1 Samuel 24:5 - He had cut off Saul's skirt. - ἀφεῖλεν/ כרת

Isaiah 9:6 - תהי : She became
Gen 20:12 - תהי : She became
Gen 19:26 - תהי : She became
2 Sam 11:27 - תהי : She became

Isaiah 9:7 - משרה "Her Government" ( KJV - משרו "His Goverment" )
Lee Mcgee

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Re: Isaiah 9:6

Postby Saboi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:39 pm

Exodus 17:15 - ויקרא שמו יהוה נסי "And called his name Dió־nysi "
Isaiah 9:6 - ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ "And called his name Polyboule"

פלא־יועץ = πολύ־βουλος "much-counselling, exceeding wise"
- Refer to a specific historical personage.
- applied many times to Diónysos ( Μίσα, Ἄδωνις. Διόνυσος )
Lee Mcgee

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Re: Isaiah 9:6

Postby Saboi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:59 pm

They are four children in Isaiah.

1. Shearjashub ( Isaiah 7:3)
2. Emmanuel ( Isaiah 7:14 )
3. Mahershalalhashbaz ( Isaiah 8:1)
4. Polyboule ( Isaiah 9:6)

Isaiah 8:7-8
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his bank And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

The word overflow (שטף )occurs 11 times in Isaiah.

Job 38:25 ( תעלה = Hiddekel)
Who hath divided a watercourse(תעלה ) for the overflowing of waters or a way (דרך) for the lightning to thunder

Isaiah 7:3
and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit (תעלה ) of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;

2 Kings 20:19 'Hezekiah built a pool and a conduit '
Gen 26:18 Isaac digged the wells of water,

יצחק ( Isaac)
חזקיה ( Hezekiah) *ἰσχύς
יחזקאל ( Ezekiel) * ἰσχυρός

Isaiah 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of Beqaa and I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
Lee Mcgee

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Re: Isaiah 9:6

Postby Saboi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:05 pm

Ezekiel 31:4
The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers(תעלת) unto all the trees of the field.

תעלת = Hiddekel (Gen 2:14)

Ezekiel 31:9 - The cedars in the garden of God
Ezekiel 31:16 - all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon

The women giving birth to those children in Isaiah are Nymphs birthing the rivers or Hezekiah's (Azemilcus) conduits that
he built in Lebanon ( 1 Kings 7:2) and are the rivers of Eden.
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
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Re: Isaiah 9:6

Postby R.J. Furuli » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:05 am

Dear Lee,

In connection with Isaiah 9:6 you are on thin ice. Do you really mean that Classical Hebrew has tenses and that Greek aorist represents past tense? (tense=grammticalization of location in time)

In my dissertation: A New Understanding of the Verbal System of Classical Hebrew An Attempt to Distinguish between Semantic and Pragmatic Factors I refer to my list of 965 examples pf qatal with furure reference. Please note that there is a difference between "future reference" and "future tense."

Isaiah 53:7 is a fine example of the tenselessness of Hebrew as well as Greek aorist. The verb נִמְנָ֑ה is qatal and the LXX verb ἐλογίσθη is aorist. Jesus quoted this verse (Luke 22:37), and Luke, who rendered Jesus' Hebrew words into Greek, quoted the LXX and used the aorist ἐλογίσθη. Both Jesus and Luke knew Classical Hebrew, and yet Jesus took the qatal נִמְנָ֑ה in 53:7 as referring to the future. Luke used the aorist ἐλογίσθη with future reference as well.

In Acts 8:32-35, the words of Isaiah 53:7-8 are quoted. In these verses there are four yiqtols and four qatals and all eight must have future reference. This means that in the minds of Jesus, Luke, and Philip, all the qatals and yiqtols in Isaiah, chapter 53, had future reference.

The so-called prophetic perfect cannot be applied here. It is a psychological explanation that was used in the 19th century as an ad hoc explanation when it was discovered that so many qatals have future reference, and it was believed that qatal was past tense.

The Greek aorist represents the perfective aspect just as does qatal, and they are not tenses. An example of aorist with future reference is Jude 1:14.

Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli

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Re: Isaiah 9:6

Postby Saboi » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:30 am

Isaiah 53 must be the continuous dialogue of Hezekiah, Isaiah 53:5 is past tense "He was wounded" (ἐτραυματίσθη ) and Hezekiah said in 12. "I will divide him a portion" (κληρονομήσει - future)
and then switches too past-time "poured out" (ἐκ-ῥύη) (ע־רה).

Isaiah 53:3 - She is despise
Isaiah 53:8 - She was taken from the earth
Pass tenses in this verse - ἤχθη ἤρθη

I don't believe Isaiah 53 is referring to a person but a fruit-bearing plant or tree, perhaps
a Sycamore tree (Fig-mulberry tree) and the word transgression or פשע from πούς
means "Stepping" ( 1 Samuel 20:3) or stomping.

Book of Isaiah is filled with references to Wine, Fruits and branches.
Lee Mcgee

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