Ps 139:4

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Isaac Fried
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Re: Ps 139:4

Postby Isaac Fried » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:24 pm

What
כי אין מלת שקר בלשוני
הן יהוה ידעת כלה

is saying is this:
"That there is even not one false word upon my tongue God can vouch for me as he knows all I say."
Methinks

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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SteveMiller
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Re: Ps 139:4

Postby SteveMiller » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:13 pm

Isaac,
The word "false" is not there in the Hebrew.
Also, How could David say to God in a good conscience that there is not even 1 false word upon my tongue?
Can you find another verse with a meaning like that?
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Isaac Fried
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Re: Ps 139:4

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:12 pm

Yes, indeed! the original Hebrew text is
אֵין מִלָּה בִּלְשׁוֹנִי הֵן יהוה יָדַעְתָּ כֻלָּהּ
NIV: "Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely."
without the שקר ἄδικος.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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SteveMiller
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Re: Ps 139:4

Postby SteveMiller » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:05 am

"Before" isn't there either. And the verse starts with ki.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Schubert
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Re: Ps 139:4

Postby Schubert » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:39 pm

SteveMiller wrote:"...And the verse starts with ki.


While looking at Allen's Word Biblical Commentary (vol. 3) on verse 13 of this psalm, I came across an interesting comment concerning the use of כּי at the beginning of that verse. Allen notes that one of the uses of כּי is as an affirmative particle: "Indeed" or Yea". In this use, it introduces an independent clause unlike when it is used causally ("because…").

It then dawned on me that there may be a similar use of כּי at the beginning of verse 4 of this psalm. And, indeed, Allen's translation of verse 4 begins with "For example,"; i.e. it's used to introduce an independent clause.

Interestingly, this demonstrative use of כּי is the first meaning listed in HALOT in Bibleworks even though it's not the most common use of the word.
John McKinnon

Isaac Fried
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Re: Ps 139:4

Postby Isaac Fried » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:32 pm

What is on the poet's mind may be gathered from his train of thought, his moral agenda and his doctrinal thesis. To translate his poetry into plain language we may have to have recourse to more of our own words. Here are his words in verses 1-5:
לַמְנַצֵּחַ לְדָוִד מִזְמוֹר יהוה חֲקַרְתַּנִי וַתֵּדָע
אַתָּה יָדַעְתָּ שִׁבְתִּי וְקוּמִי בַּנְתָּה לְרֵעִי מֵרָחוֹק
אָרְחִי וְרִבְעִי זֵרִיתָ וְכָל דְּרָכַי הִסְכַּנְתָּה
כִּי אֵין מִלָּה בִּלְשׁוֹנִי הֵן יהוה יָדַעְתָּ כֻלָּהּ
אָחוֹר וָקֶדֶם צַרְתָּנִי וַתָּשֶׁת עָלַי כַּפֶּכָה

The pious theme of this section is that God has a hand (וַתָּשֶׁת עָלַי כַּפֶּכָה) in our inception and formation, and keeps tabs on our behavior (השגחה פרטית) throughout our entire life.
Verse 4 clearly says, at least to my understanding, that God is aware of every word we utter. There is no escaping his reckoning. The initial כִּי is for emphasis, "indeed, certainly".

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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SteveMiller
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Re: Ps 139:4

Postby SteveMiller » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:57 pm

Schubert wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:"...And the verse starts with ki.


While looking at Allen's Word Biblical Commentary (vol. 3) on verse 13 of this psalm, I came across an interesting comment concerning the use of כּי at the beginning of that verse. Allen notes that one of the uses of כּי is as an affirmative particle: "Indeed" or Yea". In this use, it introduces an independent clause unlike when it is used causally ("because…").

It then dawned on me that there may be a similar use of כּי at the beginning of verse 4 of this psalm. And, indeed, Allen's translation of verse 4 begins with "For example,"; i.e. it's used to introduce an independent clause.

Interestingly, this demonstrative use of כּי is the first meaning listed in HALOT in Bibleworks even though it's not the most common use of the word.

Thanks very much, John.
I had not thought to look up ki in HALOT.
That reminds me, way back when I was in Hebrew school, ki tov was a common expression, meaning "so good".
I prefer that "so" meaning to "indeed" because "indeed" can be inserted anywhere, so it it hard to disprove.
Also there is a causation meaning of "so" which goes along with the normal meaning of ki.
For example, HALOT's 1st example of ki as emphatic is:
‎ Genesis 18:20 וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוָ֔ה זַעֲקַ֛ת סְדֹ֥ם וַעֲמֹרָ֖ה כִּי־רָ֑בָּה וְחַ֙טָּאתָ֔ם כִּ֥י כָבְדָ֖ה מְאֹֽד׃
KJV Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
NAS Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

KJV translated the ki's as "because" which I don't think is right because of the word order.
NAS translated the ki's as "indeed", which loses the connection to the next verse.

I would now translate the ki's as "so":
And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin is so heavy
v21 I will go down now and see ....

Most of HALOT's examples don't require an emphatic. i.e.
Job 12:2אָ֭מְנָם כִּ֣י אַתֶּם־עָ֑ם וְ֜עִמָּכֶ֗ם תָּמ֥וּת חָכְמָֽה׃
KJV Job 12:2 No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.
NAS Job 12:2 "Truly then you are the people, And with you wisdom will die!
HALOT says the ki here should be translated as "certainly", but there is already a "truly" there.
NAS's "then" seems to work best.

but that would be another thread.

Anyway, Allen's "for example" for the ki at the beginning of Ps 139:4 seems to be the normal meaning of 'ki'.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)


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