Page 1 of 4

Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:45 pm
by Isaac Fried
We read there
בְּיוֹם עֲשׂוֹת יהוה אֱלֹהִים אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָיִם
KJV: "in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens"
with עֲשׂוֹת marked with the the curious ניקוּד of חטף-פתח hateph-pathah, which appears to consist of a patah and a nearby schwa (called here חטף hateph for a תנוּעה חטוּפה.)
I recall that in school we were told the "official" understanding of this mark as indicating a schwa "mobile". With time I came to deny the existence of this sound, and now believe that the hateph-pathah (or rather the schwa-pathah) is a compromise marking combined to accommodate different reading traditions heard at the time of the NIQUD insertion; one with a schwa and one with a patah.
I always read the hateph-pathah as an A, namely עֲשׂוֹת ASOT (as I also don't distinguish in reading between an aleph and an eyin).

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:11 pm
by Isaac Fried
Today I have heard from someone knowledgeable the following interesting understanding of the reading of the hateph-pathah: the pathah at the side of the schwa (the hateph) is placed there to indicate that the schwa needs to be extended into a schwa "mobile". It is clever but, in my opinion, a mere muse. There is no schwa "mobile" in Hebrew.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:01 pm
by Isaac Fried
I also follow the ארץ ישראל Eretz-Israel tradition and make no distinction in the reading of the qametz and the patah; I read them both as A, and so also the hateph-qametz.
The Hebrew Academy in Jerusalem insists, in an official directive, on the readings
צָהֳרַיִם (midday) tsohorayim
מָחֳרָת (next day) mohorat
נָעֳמִי No‘omi
which I find tasteless and awkward. Exercising my right to freedom of expression I prefer in all my public readings the, officially frowned upon: tsaharayim, maharat, Na'ami.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:49 pm
by ducky
Hello

It is indeed a replacement of the Mobile Sheva
it comes in that place in the letter Ayin because the letter Ayin is a throat consonant and therefore it doesn't have a Mobile Sheva but Hataph instead

Check the form of another word that its letter is not from the throat (like שבות from שבה)
Obadiah 1:11
בְּיוֹם שְׁבוֹת זָרִים חֵילוֹ
here the letter ש gets the Mobile Sheva
and so is עשות "should be" written.
But because it starts with the Ayin, then instead of the Mobile Sheva, comes the Hataph

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:26 pm
by Isaac Fried
David Hunter wrote
It is indeed a replacement of the Mobile Sheva
First, it is not clear to me what "replacement" means. Second, how do you read עֲשׂוֹת, ASOT, or do you read the the hataph-patah in some "curtailed" form, in some חטוּפה form?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:44 am
by ducky
Hello Isaac

I read the Ayin is עשות exactly the way you read the Ayin in לעשות (the last word in the previous verse)

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:25 pm
by Isaac Fried
Ducky wrote
Obadiah 1:11
בְּיוֹם שְׁבוֹת זָרִים חֵילוֹ
here the letter ש gets the Mobile Sheva
The letter ש does not "get" a "Mobile" schwa. If you prefer to "move" the schwa, replacing it by an e, to read שְׁבוֹת as shEvot, then it turns into what you call "mobile". I do not do it since I find shEvot unpleasant to the ear, and read it always curtly as shvot. I believe that this is what I hear Hebrew speaking people do. עֲשׂוֹת I read as Asot with an initial A. Similarly, לַאֲשֶׁר I read la-Asher (capital letters are only just so they stand out.)
Consider the act שלח-אנוּ = שָׁלַחְנוּ, 'we have sent', that has a schwa under the letter xet. The highly "inflected" form יִשְׁלַחֲךָ = היא-שלח-אכה, 'he will send you', is with a hateph-pathah under the xet, and I read it yishlAkhakhah.
As for the biblical word מַחֲבַת, 'frying pan', of Lev. 6:14
עַל מַחֲבַת בַּשֶּׁמֶן תֵּעָשֶׂה מֻרְבֶּכֶת תְּבִיאֶנָּה
here I follow the מנהג ארץ ישראל and call it populistically מַחְבַת with a schwa (always נח) under the letter xet, as in my wife saying to me in the morning:
יצחק תביא את המַחְבַת ונעשה חביתה
Otherwise, שְׁבוֹת = שב-הוּא-את with the internal הוּא referring to the performer of the act שבה, here the זָרִים, the foreigners.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:59 pm
by Isaac Fried
The thing is not only a מַחֲבַת but a מַחֲבַט as well since I
חובט בביצה טוֹב טוֹב עם המזלג לערבב את החלמוֹן בחלבוֹן

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:11 pm
by ducky
Hello Isaac

you are arguing about a term which we probably define differently.

A grammatical Mobile Sheva is any Sheva that is derived from a vowel.
(but a Sheva can be mobile also from other reasons)

Once you connect a Sheva to the next letter, it is mobile. It doesn't matter if you read it as "o", "a", "e" or just "run with it" (zero-vowel) - all of these styles are mobile.

The reason that you pronounce some of the mobile Sheva as "e" (like מנורה Menora)
and some as zero-vowel (like תמונה temuna-->tmuna)
is not because of grammar reason or rule
it is for Phonology reasons

These are two different subjects.

Re: Gen. 2:4, חטף-פתח hateph-pathah

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:20 pm
by ducky
Also,

it is not that the ש is not mobilized. As I said, it is for Phonology reason that this letter is easy to be pronounced with as "no-vowel" with any letter that comes after it.

But let's take a theoretical word. שְׁצוּפָה
would you not mobilize the ש in this case?

As for מחבת - this is actually a silent Sheva that the throaty ח naturally create a tiny vowel.
and Check the word מחסה that is voweled with a silent Sheva and also with a Hataph.
It is just a matter of pronunciation, and not "pure-grammar"