KJV - Bad tenses

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Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:01 pm

I come across many verses in the King James that are written in Future-tense, but analyzing these particular verses in the Hebrew and Septuagint, they are clearly past-tense.

Isaiah 9:14 - Therefore the LORD will cut off *כרת /ἀφεῖλε

The Hebrew word here is כרת, the Septuagint word is ἀφεῖλεν, these words occur in the Book of Samuel.

1 Samuel 24:5 - He had cut off Saul's skirt *כרת /ἀφεῖλε

Isaiah 9:6 (Past tense)
That Child Was born to us
כי־ילד ילד־לנו
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν

A Son as being given too us
בן נתן־לנו
ἐδόθη

And it came to pass (already happened)
ותהי - καὶ ἐγένετο

Act 7:20
In that time Was born Moses
ἐν ᾧ καιρῷ ἐγεννήθη Μωσῆς

This verse uses the same past-tense verb in the Greek version of Isaiah 9:6.
Lee Mcgee

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:11 pm

Not only does KJV use the wrong tenses but also gender, the Septuagint correctly renders Hebrew feminine words into Greek feminine words, they are always in agreement with other.

Isaiah 53:8 - She was taken from the earth (KJV - He was taken)
Isaiah 9:6 - תהי : She became ( KJV - He Became)
2 Sam 11:27 - תהי : She became (correct tense in KJV)
Isaiah 9:7 - משרה : Her Government (KJV - His Government)
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:02 am

Dear Lee,

You wrote:

I come across many verses in the King James that are written in Future-tense, but analyzing these particular verses in the Hebrew and Septuagint, they are clearly past-tense.

Isaiah 9:14 - Therefore the LORD will cut off *כרת /ἀφεῖλε

The Hebrew word here is כרת, the Septuagint word is ἀφεῖλεν, these words occur in the Book of Samuel.

1 Samuel 24:5 - He had cut off Saul's skirt *כרת /ἀφεῖλε

Isaiah 9:6 (Past tense)
That Child Was born to us
כי־ילד ילד־לנו
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν

A Son as being given too us
בן נתן־לנו
ἐδόθη


Have you ever read the tale about the emperor's new cloths? All the people were admiring the beautiful new cloths of the emperor, until a small child correctly observed: "But the emperor is naked." The view called "prophetic perfect," saying that qatals in prophecies should be translated by perfect or simple past, because the fulfillment was so certain in the mind of the prophet that he used verbs with completed (past) meaning, is like the emperor's clothe—the view is pure nonsense.

There are two reasons behind this very strong statement:

1) The view is psychological or parapsychological, and it is based on the supposition that one can read the minds of the prophets.
2) The view was invented as an ad hoc explanation in order to save a wrong theory.

Point 1) shows that the theory is metaphysical, and metaphysics has no place in grammatical explnations.

Point 2) refers to the beginning and middle of the 19th century. The basic view at this time was that qatal represented completed action or past tense. When the study of the Tanakh progressed, more and more examples of qatals with future reference were discovered. In order to save the theory of completed action/past tense, the prophetic perfect explanation was invented. True, the reference is future, but the past/completed force of the verb used is in the mind of the prophet. The prophet is so certain of the fulfillment of the prophecy that he used past tense for situations in the future.

Isaiah was a prophet, and what he wrote is prophetic, it refers to the future. The setting of chapters 8-11 are clearly prophetic. I translate some verses from these chapters:

9:6 "For a child will be born to us (qatal), and a son will be given (qatal) to us. And the government will prove to be (wayyiqtol) on his shoulder. and his name will be called (wayyiqtol) Wonderful Councelor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

10:27, 28: "(27) And it must occur (weqatal) in that day that his burden will be lifted (yiqtol) from your shoulder, and his yoke from your neck, and the yoke will be broken (weqatal) by reason of fatness. (28) He will certainly come (qatal) against Aiath, and will indeed pass through (qatal) Migron, and at Mikmash he will be storing (yiqtol) his supplies."

Because the two qatals in verse 28 are sentence initial, which is not usual, I take them as emphatic. Therefore I use "certainly" and "indeed." Because the yiqtol represents the imperfective aspect where details are made visible, I translate the last yiqtol as "will be storing" and not as "will store" (cause to count).

A question: Is there a difference in the temporal reference of the weqatals, the qatals, and the yiqtols?

11:8, 9 "(8) And the sucking child will play (weqatal) near the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child will stretch out (qatal) his hand over the viper’s nest. (9) They will not be doing (yiqtol) any harm or cause ruin (yiqtol) in all my holy mountain, because the earth will be filled (qatal) with the knowledge of Yehowa as the waters cover (part) the sea."

Please note that I use the form "Yehowa." This pronunciation is based on Hebrew and Akkadian evidence. See my book: The Tetragram—Its History, Its Place in the New Testament, and Its pronunciation.

Question: A question: Is there a difference in the temporal reference of the weqatal, the qatals, and the yiqtols?


Please note that the Hebrew conjugations do not represent tenses but aspects.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:57 am

I have studied Isaiah for quite some time, I do not believe it is a Prophecy, but a 'lamentation', this is why the Isaiah as so many 'Woes' and 'Howls'
that are various cries, Even today, lamentation or ritual mourning is still part of the Jewish tradition.

Isaiah 32:12 (Lamentation)
They shall lament the teats (שדים), the pleasant fields (שדי), for the fruitful vine.
Ezekiel 23:3
They bruised(past) the teats of their virginity

Isaiah 9:6
That Child Was born to us.
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν
כי־ילד ילד־לנו

A Son as being given too us
בן נתן־לנו *ἐδόθη (Past Tense)

ותהי - καὶ ἐγένετο "And it came too pass" (already came to pass)
ה משרה "from her might'
על־שכמו "Upon his shoulder"

Also note Isaiah mentions the birth of other sons.
1. Shearjashub ( Isaiah 7:3)
2. Emmanuel ( Isaiah 7:14 )
3. Mahershalalhashbaz ( Isaiah 8:1-2) *possible father of Ezekiel
4. Polyboulos (Isaiah 9:6)
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:20 pm

Dear Lee,

You wrote:

I have studied Isaiah for quite some time, I do not believe it is a Prophecy, but a 'lamentation', this is why the Isaiah as so many 'Woes' and 'Howls'
that are various cries, Even today, lamentation or ritual mourning is still part of the Jewish tradition.


You have not answered my two questions regarding the time reference of the verbs in Isaiah 10.27, 28 and 11:8, 9. Please do that. If you do not answer questions directed at you, a meaningful linguistic discussion is not possible.

Another question: The description of the animals and the children in Isaiah 11:8, 9, is it a lamentation or a prophecy?


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:31 pm

The last part of Isaiah 11 mentions the fall of Lebanon, so this is referring to the Fall of Tyre, the last being
Azemilcus, cut off between the reign of Darius III (Dan 9:1) and Lord of Asia (Dan 10:1).

Isaiah 10:34
And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall 'fall by a mighty one'.

Isaiah 10:27
And it shall come to pass in that day, that his(Azemilcus) burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

Isaiah 11:1
ויצא חטר מגזע ישי / καὶ ἐξελεύσεται ῥάβδος ἐκ τῆς ῥίζης Ιεσσαι
"And came out a rod from the root of Jesse and the flower from the root shall go up.

Ecclesiastes 4:14
יצא ל מלך / ἐξελεύσεται τοῦ βασιλεῦσαι "Came forth too reign"
נולד רש / ἐγεννήθη πένης "Was born a pauper"
Lee Mcgee

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Isaac Fried » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:47 pm

Seems to me that in Isaiah 9:5(6) 'Doing Wonders" is more befitting for פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ then "Wonderful Counsellor" since all these names are rather epithets for the everlasting (אֲבִי-עַד = אב-היא-עד Compare אֲבִיהוּא = אב-היא-הוא of Ex. 6:23) God.
Recall Ex. 15:11
מִי כָמֹכָה בָּאֵלִם יהוה מִי כָּמֹכָה נֶאְדָּר בַּקֹּדֶשׁ נוֹרָא תְהִלּת עֹשֵׂה פֶלֶא
KJV: "Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?"

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:31 pm

All the names and epithets are just various woes and cries, part of the Dionysian culture.

- ὀδύναι ' pain of mind, grief, distress'
- תאניה (Tanie) "Mourning"
- תאנה (Tane) " Fig" τῦκον, συκῇ
- ἀνιᾷ ( Ania) "grief, sorrow, distress"
- ὥδωνις, Ἄδωνις 'Adonis'
- ἁδοναί, ἡδονή 'enjoyment' (fem)
- στένω ( Steno ) "moan, narrow"
- Διόνυσος 'Dionysus'
- εὐοῖ ' cry of the bacchai'
- יהוה, ὑή - Dionysus as the god of fertilizing moisture
- בכה 'Weep'
- בכא 'Fig' (mulberry)
- תמוז 'Tammuz
- דמעת 'Tears
- דמ 'Blood'
- Διόνυσος (Δνυσ/תמוז)
- תאנה 'mulberry-fig'
- שוע, 'שבע' 'Cry'
- יהושוע 'Jesus (εὐοῖ σέβοι , εὐσέβιος, δῖος σεβυς)
- יהוסף 'Joseph'
- צבאות 'Sabaoth
- Σαβάζιος 'Sabazios
- κοπτός 'chop small
- κοπετός ' lamentation
- הדד־רמון , Hadad '(God of Pomegranates)
- מגדון (Megiddon)
- גדעון (Gideon)
- גדעם (Gidom)
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:43 am

Dear Lee,

You wrote:

The last part of Isaiah 11 mentions the fall of Lebanon, so this is referring to the Fall of Tyre, the last being
Azemilcus, cut off between the reign of Darius III (Dan 9:1) and Lord of Asia (Dan 10:1).

Isaiah 10:34
And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall 'fall by a mighty one'.

Isaiah 10:27
And it shall come to pass in that day, that his(Azemilcus) burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

Isaiah 11:1
ויצא חטר מגזע ישי / καὶ ἐξελεύσεται ῥάβδος ἐκ τῆς ῥίζης Ιεσσαι
"And came out a rod from the root of Jesse and the flower from the root shall go up.

Ecclesiastes 4:14
יצא ל מלך / ἐξελεύσεται τοῦ βασιλεῦσαι "Came forth too reign"
נולד רש / ἐγεννήθη πένης "Was born a pauper"
Lee Mcgee



You was the one who brought up the issue of "bad tenses," and therefore you ought to be able to do a linguitic analysis of translations from Hebrew." You have still not answered my questions related to bad tenses. Please look at my first post and my translation of Isaiah 10:27, 28 and 11:8, 9, and my arguments for my renderings. Use Hebrew Lexicon, grammar, and syntax and show that you either agree or disagree with "the tenses" I use.


Best regards,


Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:47 am

I am well aware of the frequent tense change throughout Isaiah, this also happens in the same verse.

Isaiah 53:12
I will divide him a portion (of wine) *Future *κληρονομήσε (verb 3rd sg fut ind act doric contr)
She poured out" (ἐκ-ῥύη) (ע־רה). *Past *παρεδόθη (verb 3rd sg aor ind pass)

9:6 "For a child will be born to us (qatal)

Will - expressing the future tense.

So the authors of the NT are Greek and the Septuagint version of the verse uses
the word ἐγεννήθη, according to the word study tool, 'verb 3rd sg aor ind pass attic ionic
and the same word used in Act 7:20 that reads ' ἐγεννήθη Μωυσῆς' , If i translated this
into Hebrew, it be יולד־משה 'Moses was Born,

-Isaiah 9:6-
ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν : ילד־לנו " Was Born to us"
ἐδόθη ἡμῖν : נתן־לנו "Was Given to us"
Lee Mcgee


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