KJV - Bad tenses

The main place for discussion the Hebrew Bible, its language and message.
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Isaac Fried » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:00 pm

יוּלַד = י-הוּא-לד
נִיתַן = נ-היא-תן
Notice the lack of dagesh in a plene כתיב מלא writing.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:33 pm

Dear Lee,

You wrote:

I am well aware of the frequent tense change throughout Isaiah, this also happens in the same verse.


This answer is cryptic, and you still does not answer my questions. So, I try again. Do you accept that the all the verbs in the different conjugations in Isaiah 10.27,28 and 11:8,9 should be translated by English future? Or have I applied one or more verbs in a bad way?

Please note that the phrase "Greek tenses" is a misnomer. Tense (grammaticalization of location in time) does exist in Greek. But it is a minor part of the verbal system compared with aspect. I will argue that Greek future is a future tense, and Greek imperfect is a combination of past tense and the imprefective aspect. But present and aorist are not tenses, but only aspects. Greek present represents the imperfective aspect, and Greek aorist represents the perfective aspect. It is true that most aorist verbs have past reference, but some in the NT have present and future reference as well. The quality of the books of the LXX is very different, and it would be fallacious to argue that a Hebrew verb that is translated by an aorist must represent past tense.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:14 pm

The words in Isaiah 10.27,28 and 11:8,9 are translated in the Future-Sense, as they are in the Septuagint
but Isaiah 9:6 is in the past tense translated as future tense in the King James.

The Septuagint version of Isaiah uses three pass tense verbs, to test the accuracy of the Septuagint you
find other places the words appear and see if the Hebrew matches.

ἐγεννήθη
ילד (Isaiah 9:6) 'Was Born'
נולד (Ecclesiastes 4:14) 'Is Born'

ἐδόθη
תהי (Isaiah 9:6) 'Was Given'
נתן (Leviticus 19:20) 'Given'
יתן (Micah 3:5) 'He put'
נתן (Joshua 13:14) 'He gave'
נתן (Ezekiel 16:34) 'Is Given''

ἐγενήθη
היה (Zephaniah 1:1) 'Came unto'
היה (Genesis 15:1) 'Came unto'
יהי (Exodus 2:10) 'Became'
היה (Jeremiah 36:1) 'Came unto'
Last edited by Saboi on Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lee Mcgee

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Isaac Fried » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:31 pm

Seems to me that the difference between יוּלַד = י-הוּא-לד and נוֹלַד = נוֹ-לד is only in the position of the personal pronoun for the newly born within the act ילד.
Gen. 6:1
וַיְהִי כִּי הֵחֵל הָאָדָם לָרֹב עַל פְּנֵי הָאֲדָמָה וּבָנוֹת יֻלְּדוּ לָהֶם
KJV: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them"
Gen. 21:3
וַיִּקְרָא אַבְרָהָם אֶת שֶׁם בְּנוֹ הַנּוֹלַד לוֹ אֲשֶׁר יָלְדָה לּוֹ שָׂרָה יִצְחָק
KJV: "And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac"

Some say that the "pual" hides an unnamed, behind the scenes, actor, as say in Gen. 44:3
הַבֹּקֶר אוֹר וְהָאֲנָשִׁים שֻׁלְּחוּ הֵמָּה וַחֲמֹרֵיהֶם
KJV: "As soon as the morning was light, the men were sent away (by the master of the house), they and their asses"
while the "niphal" is a spontaneous act, as in, say, Isaiah 8:15
וְכָשְׁלוּ בָם רַבִּים וְנָפְלוּ וְנִשְׁבָּרוּ וְנוֹקְשׁוּ וְנִלְכָּדוּ
KJV: "And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken"

I think the distinct forms are due to different developments and different preferences of form in the language. Of course, there is the reading of what is written, and there is the understanding of the imagined accessory realities of the cited situation.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:16 am

There are clues in Mark's Gospel that is was originally written as a 'play' to be played in a theater and they are also clues in the Old Testament, for example the story of Elijah, his epithet was originally 'Tishbite' (Actor), that was later changed into 'Prophet', .

Gen 6:1 'and it came to pass, when men began to multiply'' (Narrator)
.
Lee Mcgee

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:11 pm

In Gen. 25:19 we read
‎אַבְרָהָם הוֹלִיד אֶת יִצְחָקKJV: "Abraham begat Isaac"
Here הוֹלִיד ‫=‬ הוּא‫-‬ל‫-‬היא‫-‬ד is with two personal pronouns added to the act ילד, one for Abraham, and one for his son.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Saboi
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: KJV - Bad tenses

Postby Saboi » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:47 pm

Gen 25:19
ABREM EULID AT IZHQ (אברהם הוליד את־יצחק)
ABRAAM EGENNHSEN TON ISAAK (Αβρααμ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ισαακ)

You can see that every word in the Hebrew is represented in Greek, even the article, את/τὸν
and though i do wonder if הוליד & ἐγέννησεν are cognates, note that Hebrew omits 'G' , for example
the name 'Gaza', as no initial G in the Hebrew and often the G shifts into L, G > GL , also with D
D < ND < N.

ILD > IGLDN > IGN ( ἐγέννα - ילד )

שלש < שמש "Solus" (Sun)
Lee Mcgee


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests