Thorns and Bushes

For discussions which focus upon specific words, their origin, meaning, relationship to other ANE languages.
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Isaac Fried »

" 'Heart' stems from a root meaning 'Hollow', this very word also cognate of κοῖλος 'Hollow' or refers to the shape of the dish, the cakes and bread are baked in. "

I am sorry, but I can not, even remotely, agree with this kind of analysis of Hebrew words based on these Greek "cognates".

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Saboi

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Saboi »

Latin word for 'Cake' is Libum & Laganum that are cognates of לחם also λάγανα 'Thin broad cake' that roots 'Lasagna' that are always cooked in the Oven.

λάγανα ἄζυμα (unleavened cake) appears in the LXX version of Leviticus as a reading of 'רקיקי מצות' and the word מצות is identical too μάζας and רקיקי is φρυκτοί 'roasted'

The Passover, coincides with the Roman festival of Anna Perenna, the goddess
of barley-cakes (מצות) thus would have being eaten at that time of the year
and also coincides with the Ovis Idulis (Sacrifice of the Lamb).

Ovis, Ovibus - כבש, ὄϝις (same word).

These cakes are broken and passed around, a Passover (פסח).

This particular tradition was not a creation of Moses because Abraham did it.

Gen 18:5
I will fetch a morsel (פת) of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on

Leviticus 2:6
Thou shalt part it in pieces (פת)

Judges 19:5
Comfort thine heart with a morsel of bread (פת־לחם, ψίξ λάγανον)

פת= ψίξ (.crumb, morsel, bit, esp. of bread)
* root of פסח(ψῖχες) 'Passover' (play on πήδησις )

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... &prior=to/
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
Saboi

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Saboi »

Isaac Fried wrote:" 'Heart' stems from a root meaning 'Hollow', this very word also cognate of κοῖλος 'Hollow' or refers to the shape of the dish, the cakes and bread are baked in. "

I am sorry, but I can not, even remotely, agree with this kind of analysis of Hebrew words based on these Greek "cognates".

Isaac Fried, Boston University
I use Greek as a reference points because the Lexicon is well documented, although i could easily use Latin, which is closer too Phoenician.

A very easy example is בית, the Septuagint always reads this as οἶκος, however this is latter spelling of the word, originally written 'ϝοικος, converting this into the Phoenician script, it becomes ϝικ, בית, The initial letter is omitted in οἶκος but retained in Latin, ϝοικος becomes Foedus which means 'league, treaty, compact, alliance' , also roots the word 'Federal' and VIS (House)

ϝοικος (ϝικ, Vis, בית, Fed, היך)

θυγάτηρ 'Daughter'
- υγάτηρ ( Initial letter dropped)
- υάτηρ (guttural dropped)
- υάτη (case ending dropped)
- υτ (vowels removed)
- בת (pronounced υάτη "Bath")

The γ often roles into λ, so in Latin, בγת > ϝλτ > Filia (ת>ia)

The omitting of letters is not documented in the Strong's Lexicon for example
in Hebrew, כרסא also written כסא 'Throne' (Daniel 5:20, Esther 1:2)

κλισία "anything for lying or sitting upon, couch or easy chair"

κλισία > כסא < כרסא "Throne"
ῥάβδος > שבט < שרביט "Scepter"
ἀδελφιδός > ἀδεφιδός > δφιδ > דוד < דויד "Uncle'
γαληνόν > γληνν > שאנן < שלאנן "Ease"

B/M

Gen 1:18 - Rule (משל) over the day

משל > βσλ > βασιλεύς 'Ruler'
לך < מלך > ΡΧ (ἀρχός, Rex)

Septuagint renders מלך as μελεχ, *The letter Χ derives from ך(Chi)

It is easier, more fun and more accurate to define Hebrew words as homologies of Latin & Greek
rather then using an outdated biased lexicon.

חצצרות (psalm 98:6)
- τίτυρος (Tituros) "shepherd's pipe,"
- σῦριγξ (Surigc) "shepherd's pipe, panpipes"
- συριστής (Suristes) "player on the panpipes, piper'

רדמ (Radam)
- δαρθάνω "Darthan" (Od. 20.143)
- תרדמה "Tardemah" (Gen 2:21)

שער 'Door'
- θύρα 'Door' 'metaph., senses, as the entrances to the soul,
- דלת/δικλίς 'double folding door'
- πύλη 'one wing of a pair of double gates'
- תרע (tĕra) 'gate, door' (Aramaic)
- דעער - שעער - שער - Door
Last edited by Saboi on Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Isaac Fried »

"they are too many words that are from 'unknown roots' and most of the etymologies lack any logic whatsoever"
Give us please some concrete examples to Hebrew words of unknown roots and fuzzy etymologies, and we will critically look at them.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Saboi

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Saboi »

I have many words.

אנס - to compel, constrain (Unknown derivation) - H597
ἀνάγκη - to force, constraint, necessity

עקרה - barren, sterile - H6135
ἄκουρος - childless, without child (ἄ κόρος )

תבת - ark (Perhaps of foreign derivation) - H8392
κύβος - anything of cubic shape, part of an irrigation-machine

זבלון - Zebulun
ζέφυρον- Westerly wind (Gen 49:13)

יונה - Dove (Probably from the same as יַיִן) - H3123
οἴνας - a wild pigeon of the colour οἰνωπός(יַיִן), the rock-dove.

תולעת - worm, scarlet stuff
σκώληξ - Worm (of a δάκτυλος φοίνικος that are crushed to produce scarlet)

שרעפים - thoughts -H8312
τρίβων - 'train of thoughts' ( דרך\ארח)
* Mark 1:3 - Make his paths(τρίβους ) straight
* Heb 12:13 - And make straight paths(τροχιὰς)
* Isaiah 40:3 - Prepare ye the way (דרך )
* דרך - τρχ = τρέχω, τροχιὰς, Arcus, Track (ירך , הרך, מהרך , הריךה )
*the word 'ARK' e.g Noah's Ark from ירך/ דרך

מפדן ארם - Padanaram (Gen 25:20)
πεδίον ἁρμόν 'Plain between two joints'

הדם - Footstool (From an unused root meaning to stamp upon) - H1916
ἕδος - seat, stool, ὑποπόδιον - foot stool . πεδίον (Plain),ποδός (Foot) > עדן 'Eden'

אפוד - ephod (Probably of foreign derivation)
ἐπενδύτης "Robe reaching too the feet"
ποδήρης "reaching to the feat"
ποδός ( Podos) "Feet"

תרפים - Teraphim
τρίπον - Three-legged i.e cauldron, votive gifts in temples and private houses

Strabo 16.1 - Ephod
Their dress is a tunic reaching to the feet
αὐτοῖς ἐστι χιτὼν λινοῦς ποδήρης καὶ ἐπενδύτης
Last edited by Saboi on Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Saboi

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Saboi »

One not needs too look far in the Bible, just take a look at the first word
of Genesis, ראשית.

ראש
- κράς 'Head'
- Cranium 'Skull'
- Brain (κ/β)

This literal word for the 'Head' is used abstractly in both Greek and Hebrew
referring to something or someone at the 'Top'

Deuteronomy 1:15 - So I took the chief (ראשי) of your tribes
Genesis 8:5 - 'tops' (ראשי) of mountains
Numbers 1:2 - Take ye the sum (ראש)

ראש
ἀριθμός 'Arithmetic'
ἄρχω 'Chief, Top, Sum'
κράς 'Head'

Some words are identical.

משורה - mĕsuwrah 'Measure' (H4884 )
*From an unused root meaning apparently to divide (Lexicon)
Saboi

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Saboi »

ANGEL
- ἄγγελος (Aggelos) 'messenger, courier, envoy'
- אגרא, אגרתא 'letter, epistle'
- עגלות(Agalah) 'cart, wagon' (Gen 49:15)
- Aggaros 'mounted-courier'
- קלל, קל ' 'swift, fleet or light' (root)

ANGLE
- ἀγκύλος 'crooked, bent'
- עקל to bend, twist'
- עקלתון(aqallathown) 'crooked'

ANKLE
- אצלות Arm-Joint'
- ἀγκάλη 'Bent arm'

DAIRY
צֹר

Image
Saboi

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Saboi »

רגל (RGL) 'Foot'

ἀστράγαλος (Astragalos)
- ball of the ankle joint
- ἀστ = ὀστῷ, Lat. os, ossis, a bone, Heb. עצה 'bone'
- ράγαλος > ργλ/רגל(ἄρθρ-)

Thus ἀστράγαλος can be derives from עצרגל 'foot-bone'
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
Saboi

Re: Thorns and Bushes

Post by Saboi »

PROPHET

A common religious word and a translation of נביא, the word 'Prophet' is a compound word of πρό & φᾶτα.

φᾶτα = בטא (bata') to speak rashly or angrily, speak thoughtlessly

This negative tone of בטא is reflected in lexicon entries of φᾶτα ' speak rashly, infallible' the words, בטא & φᾶτα are the same and written בעא in Aramaic.

Thus בטא is the root form of נביא

πρό : Before, Forth
- πρός, προτί, πρες, ποτί, πορτί, ποτ, πος, ποι, πρίν
- מול, מיד, מול, מאה, מל, בעד, על, עבר, טרום, בטרם, טרם
Post Reply