YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

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S_Walch
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby S_Walch » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:09 pm

@kwrandolph:

My search for proper nouns in construct has given 10 results:

Num 33:45
וַיִּסְע֖וּ מֵעִיִּ֑ים וַֽיַּחֲנ֖וּ בְּדִיבֹ֥ן גָּֽד׃

Num 33:46
וַיִּסְע֖וּ מִדִּיבֹ֣ן גָּ֑ד וַֽיַּחֲנ֖וּ בְּעַלְמֹ֥ן דִּבְלָתָֽיְמָה׃

1 Sam 11:4
וַיָּבֹ֤אוּ הַמַּלְאָכִים֙ גִּבְעַ֣ת שָׁא֔וּל וַיְדַבְּר֥וּ הַדְּבָרִ֖ים בְּאָזְנֵ֣י הָעָ֑ם וַיִּשְׂא֧וּ כָל־הָעָ֛ם אֶת־קוֹלָ֖ם וַיִּבְכּֽוּ׃

1 Sam 13:2
וַיִּבְחַר־ל֨וֹ שָׁא֜וּל שְׁלֹ֣שֶׁת אֲלָפִים֮ מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל֒ וַיִּהְי֨וּ עִם־שָׁא֜וּל אַלְפַּ֗יִם בְּמִכְמָשׂ֙ וּבְהַ֣ר בֵּֽית־אֵ֔ל וְאֶ֗לֶף הָיוּ֙ עִם־י֣וֹנָתָ֔ן בְּגִבְעַ֖ת בִּנְיָמִ֑ין וְיֶ֣תֶר הָעָ֔ם שִׁלַּ֖ח אִ֥ישׁ לְאֹהָלָֽיו׃

1 Sam 13:15
וַיָּ֣קָם שְׁמוּאֵ֗ל וַיַּ֛עַל מִן־הַגִּלְגָּ֖ל גִּבְעַ֣ת בִּנְיָמִ֑ן וַיִּפְקֹ֣ד שָׁא֗וּל אֶת־הָעָם֙ הַנִּמְצְאִ֣ים עִמּ֔וֹ כְּשֵׁ֥שׁ מֵא֖וֹת אִֽישׁ׃

1 Sam 14:16
וַיִּרְא֤וּ הַצֹּפִים֙ לְשָׁא֔וּל בְּגִבְעַ֖ת בִּנְיָמִ֑ן וְהִנֵּ֧ה הֶהָמ֛וֹן נָמ֖וֹג וַיֵּ֥לֶךְ וַהֲלֹֽם׃

1 Sam 15:34
וַיֵּ֥לֶךְ שְׁמוּאֵ֖ל הָרָמָ֑תָה וְשָׁא֛וּל עָלָ֥ה אֶל־בֵּית֖וֹ גִּבְעַ֥ת שָׁאֽוּל׃

2 Sam 21:6
יְנָתָן־לָ֜נוּ שִׁבְעָ֤ה אֲנָשִׁים֙ מִבָּנָ֔יו וְהוֹקַֽעֲנוּם֙ לַֽיהוָ֔ה בְּגִבְעַ֥ת שָׁא֖וּל בְּחִ֣יר יְהוָ֑ה וַיֹּ֥אמֶר הַמֶּ֖לֶךְ אֲנִ֥י אֶתֵּֽן׃

2 Sam 23:29
חֵ֥לֶב בֶּֽן־בַּעֲנָ֖ה הַנְּטֹפָתִ֑י אִתַּי֙ בֶּן־רִיבַ֔י מִגִּבְעַ֖ת בְּנֵ֥י בִנְיָמִֽן׃

Isa 10:29
עָֽבְרוּ֙ מַעְבָּרָ֔ה גֶּ֖בַע מָל֣וֹן לָ֑נוּ חָֽרְדָה֙ הָֽרָמָ֔ה גִּבְעַ֥ת שָׁא֖וּל נָֽסָה׃

The two in Numbers correspond to דִיבֹ֥ן גָּֽד / Dibon Gad; the ones in 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel and Isaiah correspond to the instances of גִּבְעַ֣ת /Gibeah of something (Saul/Benjamin). All according to Masoretic vowel-pointing of course.

One wonders whether the גִּבְעַ֣ת examples should actually just be "hills of" rather than having it as a proper noun/name of places.
Ste Walch

ralph
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby ralph » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:03 am

@kwrandolph

What might a proper noun in the construct look like?

Also, putting aside proper nouns, just looking at common nouns, do we have many cases of a noun followed by a noun, where the first isn't in the construct?

Thanks

Ralph Zak

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Kirk Lowery
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby Kirk Lowery » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:49 pm

I'm hard put to come up with an example at the moment, but I know that Hebrew nouns are often used as adverbs, and my memory says "nominals" can also be used as adjectives, although they aren't inflected like adjectives. Otherwise, the only other case I can think of is when the two nouns are in different phrases. For example, a common syntax pattern is V + S + O, that is a verb followed by a nouns as subject, followed by a noun as object. In this case, the S and O follow each other without a construct relationship between them.

Hope this answers (at least in part) your question.
Kirk E. Lowery, PhD
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kwrandolph
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby kwrandolph » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:36 pm

ralph wrote:Also, putting aside proper nouns, just looking at common nouns, do we have many cases of a noun followed by a noun, where the first isn't in the construct?

Thanks

Ralph Zak


There are a few lists where nouns follow one another without being in construct, the only one I can remember off hand is found in the first few verses of 1 Chronicles 1.

Ste Walch: Are those names in construct, or are they two word names? Or the second word actually an adjective?

Karl W. Randolph.

S_Walch
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby S_Walch » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:32 am

kwrandolph wrote:Ste Walch: Are those names in construct, or are they two word names? Or the second word actually an adjective?

I see no reason to disregard either option.

For the Numbers verses, I would more see them as a two word name. I also like the Idea of "Saul's Hills" or "Benjamin's Hills" in the 1 Sam/Isaiah as an understanding.
Ste Walch

ralph
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby ralph » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:43 pm

@kwrandolph

re "personal name that is in construct", i'm not sure what you mean by "personal name".. and thus what you'd count as a personal name.. Certainly YHWH would count as a personal name.. But i'm not sure if you'd count YHWH Tzevaot as a personal name?

And grammatically what stops us translating YHWH Elohim as a construct (with 'of' in between), the same way that it is done for YHWH Tzevaot?

Ralph Zak


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