Deuteronomy 30:3

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Kenneth Greifer
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Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:11 am

Does Deuteronomy 30:3 say "and the L-rd your G-d will return ושב with את your captivity" or "and the L-rd your G-d will bring back your captivity"?
Kenneth Greifer

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SteveMiller
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:21 pm

Hi Kenneth,
That is a good question that I did not think to ask.
I don't think it exactly means "bring back" because that should be the hiphil form of שׁוב.
It is usually translated as "turn your captivity" which means close to "bring back".

Could it mean "return with"?
I found 2 places where שׁוב followed by ‎ אֶת means "return with":
1 Kings 13:16 And he said, I cannot return with thee, nor go in with thee; neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place.
19 Then he went back with him, and ate bread in his house, and drank water.
WTT 1 Kings 13:16 וַיֹּ֗אמֶר לֹ֥א אוּכַ֛ל לָשׁ֥וּב אִתָּ֖ךְ וְלָב֣וֹא אִתָּ֑ךְ וְלֹֽא־אֹ֣כַל לֶ֗חֶם וְלֹֽא־אֶשְׁתֶּ֤ה אִתְּךָ֙ מַ֔יִם בַּמָּק֖וֹם הַזֶּֽה׃
‎ 19 וַיָּ֣שָׁב אִתּ֗וֹ וַיֹּ֥אכַל לֶ֛חֶם בְּבֵית֖וֹ וַיֵּ֥שְׁתְּ מָֽיִם

Are there any places where שׁוב followed by אֶת could not mean "return with"?
Jer 49:39 & Ezek 29:14 have the same expression for turning the captivity of Elam and Egypt respectively.
Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass at the end of the days, I will turn the captivity of Elam, saith Jehovah.
WTT Jeremiah 49:39 וְהָיָ֣ה׀ בְּאַחֲרִ֣ית הַיָּמִ֗ים (אָשׁוּב) [אָשִׁ֛יב] אֶת־(שְׁבִית) [שְׁב֥וּת] עֵילָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהוָֽה׃
Ezekiel 29:14 and I will turn again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return to the land of Pathros, into the land of their birth, and they shall there be a base kingdom.
WTT Ezekiel 29:14 וְשַׁבְתִּי֙ אֶת־שְׁב֣וּת מִצְרַ֔יִם וַהֲשִׁבֹתִ֤י אֹתָם֙ אֶ֣רֶץ פַּתְר֔וֹס עַל־אֶ֖רֶץ מְכֽוּרָתָ֑ם וְהָ֥יוּ שָׁ֖ם מַמְלָכָ֥ה שְׁפָלָֽה׃
I don't think those could be understood to be God returning with them.
Ezek 29:14 uses both the qal and hiphil forms of שׁוב.

Also used for God turning the captivity of Job in Job 42:10.
Job 42:10 And Jehovah turned the captivity of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and Jehovah gave Job twice as much as he had before.
WTT Job 42:10 וַֽיהוָ֗ה שָׁ֚ב אֶת־(שְׁבִית) [שְׁב֣וּת] אִיּ֔וֹב בְּהִֽתְפַּֽלְל֖וֹ בְּעַ֣ד רֵעֵ֑הוּ וַ֧יֹּסֶף יְהוָ֛ה אֶת־כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֥ר לְאִיּ֖וֹב לְמִשְׁנֶֽה׃
There it was not a bringing back, but a restoring of his condition. That may be the meaning of the qal phrase in other places of turning a captivity.

So I conclude that Deut 30:3 means "turn your captivity" because of its similarity to Jer 49:39; Ezek 29:14 & Job 42:10.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:28 am

Steve,

Jeremiah 49:39 could say that G-d will return with the captivity of Elam, because Jeremiah 49:38 says G-d will put His throne there.

Ezekiel 29:14 could say that G-d will return with the captivity of Egypt because Ezekiel 29:13 says that G-d will gather them from among the peoples where He scattered them. If He is gathering them, then maybe He will return with them to Egypt.
Kenneth Greifer

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:19 am

Steve,
I just noticed something. If Jeremiah 49:38 says that G-d put His throne in Elam to destroy their king and princes, then it means He went there to do it, so maybe He will go there to bring them back also.
Kenneth Greifer

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:40 am

Steve,

In Job 42:10, I think Job was in a figurative exile because his family had rejected him and then in Job 42:11 they came back to him. Also, G-d sort of came back to Job and blessed him in Job 42:12.

I also realize that it is possible that these quotes say that G-d "turned" their captivities or exiles or fortunes as some translations say. I was just thinking it could go either way in most of these quotes.
Kenneth Greifer

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SteveMiller
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby SteveMiller » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Hi Kenneth,
As far as I know, the qal form of Shoov does not take a direct object except in the case of God turning someone's captivity, which is strange. So maybe it does most literally mean, "return with", which would be consistent with the other uses.
God does care for all the nations, so He could have returned with Elam and Egypt.
And it could be said that God returned with the restoration of Job.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:48 pm

Steve,
I think you were right that the kal form of the verb can mean "to turn or cause to come back" or "to come back", but I am not sure about that. Also, in a dictionary, I saw that the kal form is also used in Isaiah 52:8, Nahum 2:3, and Psalm 85:5 to mean "to turn or to cause to come back" and these are not about "captivity."
Kenneth Greifer

Isaac Fried
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby Isaac Fried » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:04 pm

Deuteronomy 30:3
וְשָׁב יהוה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת שְׁבוּתְךָ וְרִחֲמֶךָ וְשָׁב וְקִבֶּצְךָ מִכָּל הָעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר הֱפִיצְךָ יהוה אֱלֹהֶיךָ שָׁמָּה
KJV: That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee
NIV: then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you
It seems that the common understanding of the first וְשָׁב is 'cause to turn back, undo', with this וְשָׁב standing for וְסָב. The second וְשָׁב is 'he will come back'.

One should not let the "grammar" obfuscate the obvious meaning.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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SteveMiller
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby SteveMiller » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:12 pm

Thanks Kenneth!
Ps 85:5 is the best example because it has "us" as suffix on the verb shoov, which makes "us" the direct object.
Still YLT and CSB translate it as Return to us. I didn't know that a pronoun suffix on a verb could be an indirect object.
Maybe the qal form of shoov can take the destination of returning as its direct object.
If that is the case, Deut 30:3 might mean "And the Lord your God will return to your captivity ... and will return and gather you .."

Isaac,
Most translate the second shoov in Deut 30:3 as "again". Do you think that is right?

thanks.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Isaac Fried
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Re: Deuteronomy 30:3

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:07 am

I read the second וְשָׁב as ‘He will turn (וְסָב) His attention (to you)’, or ‘He will turn (וְסָב) to the task (of redeeming you)’.
There is, indeed, some sense in ‘again’, but I am usually careful of over-reading the biblical text.

Isaac Fried, Boston University


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