Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

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SteveMiller
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Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:12 pm

Friends,
‎ WTT Genesis 6:19
וּמִכָּל־הָ֠חַי מִֽכָּל־בָּשָׂ֞ר שְׁנַ֧יִם מִכֹּ֛ל תָּבִ֥יא אֶל־הַתֵּבָ֖ה לְהַחֲיֹ֣ת אִתָּ֑ךְ זָכָ֥ר וּנְקֵבָ֖ה יִֽהְיֽוּ׃
All translations that I have seen translate the אִתָּ֑ךְ as "with you" and add "them" as a direct object not in the text as in:
DBY Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee: they shall be male and female.

et could be taken as the direct object pointer, and then there would be no need to add in the word "them":
Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep you alive: they shall be male and female.

The immediately following verse has the same verb, but with no direct object, so a "them" direct object is supplied by translators there. That may be why translators translated v19 as though there were no direct object in the text, since there was no d.o. in v20.
‎ WTT Genesis 6:20
מֵהָע֣וֹף לְמִינֵ֗הוּ וּמִן־הַבְּהֵמָה֙ לְמִינָ֔הּ מִכֹּ֛ל רֶ֥מֶשׂ הָֽאֲדָמָ֖ה לְמִינֵ֑הוּ שְׁנַ֧יִם מִכֹּ֛ל יָבֹ֥אוּ אֵלֶ֖יךָ לְהַֽחֲיֽוֹת׃
DBY Genesis 6:20 Of fowl after their kind, and of the cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of each shall go in to thee, to keep them alive.
LXX seems to have seen an אִתָּ֑ךְ there:
LXE Genesis 6:20 Of all winged birds after their kind, and of all cattle after their kind, and of all reptiles creeping upon the earth after their kind, pairs of all shall come in to thee, male and female to be fed with thee.
DSS does not preserve that part of the verse.
Samaritan Pentateuch is the same as MT for that part of the verse.

I have a theory about when et should be taken as the direct object pointer and when it should be translated as "with". If the et is connected to a verb, then look at all instances of that verb connected to et.
The verb should have a consistent relationship with et. Either et always means "with" when connected to that verb, or it always is the direct object pointer.

With this particular verb, hifil chaya, et is connected to the verb 10x besides Gen 6:19, and in all 10 cases, et is the direct object pointer: Gen 19:19; Num 22:33; Josh 2:13; 6:25; 9:20; 14:10; Jud 8:19; 2Ki 8:1, 5x2
In 3 other instances, the direct object is a pronoun suffix on the verb: Gen 47:25; Isa 38:16; Ezek 13:22
So, according to my theory, et should be the direct object pointer in Gen 6:19.

Thoughts?

Does anyone know of a case where et means "with" when connected to a verb in one instance and is the direct object pointer when connected to the same verb in another instance?

thanks.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Saboi
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Re: Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

Postby Saboi » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:09 pm

אתך translates as μετὰ σοῦ "with thee" (cf. Luke 1:28)
אליך - πρὸς σὲ "unto thee" ( Luke 1:19)

ך - tu, te, σύ, τυ, γέ

'with thee' can also be written עמך and that is tecum 'tē (“you”) + cum (“with”) in Latin.

With

Gen 5:22 - Enoch walked with God
ויתהלך חנוך את־האלהים
Enoch cum Deo (Vulgar)
μετὰ θεῷ (LXX)

Exodus 1:1 - With Jacob
את יעקב
cum Iacob (Vulgar)
ἅμα Ιακω (LXX) (ἅμα = עמ)
Lee Mcgee

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Re: Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:34 pm

Thanks Lee.

With an intransitive verb as in Gen 5:22 & Exo 1:1, or with no verb, et means "with".
Does it ever mean "with" when connected to a transitive verb?
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Saboi
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Re: Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

Postby Saboi » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:30 pm

They are more examples.

Psalm 34:4
אתי "With me" (cf. עמי)
σὺν ἐμοί (lxx)
mecum (vul)

אתכם "With you" [ὑμᾶς, עמכם]
אתם "With them" [עמם]
את־כל "With all" [עמ־כל] [omnibus]
אתנו "With us" [ἡμῖν, Nobis cum, עמנו]

Transitive
את־הנער "With the boy" (Gen 21:20) (μετὰ τοῦ παιδίου, cum puer, עמ־נער)
את־המלך "With the King" (2 Sam 19:34) (μετὰ τοῦ βασιλέως, cum rege, עמ־מלך)
Lee Mcgee

Isaac Fried
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Re: Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

Postby Isaac Fried » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:35 pm

עמכם = עם-אכם
אתכם = את-אכם
With אכם = אתם

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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SteveMiller
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Re: Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

Postby SteveMiller » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:52 pm

Saboi wrote:Psalm 34:4
אתי "With me" (cf. עמי)

Thanks very much, Lee.
This is exactly the kind of example I was looking for.
‎ WTT Psalm 34:4 גַּדְּל֣וּ לַיהוָ֣ה אִתִּ֑י וּנְרוֹמְמָ֖ה שְׁמ֣וֹ יַחְדָּֽו׃
DBY Psalm 34:3 Magnify Jehovah with me, and let us exalt his name together

The verb here, piel gadal, is transitive.
All translators translate the et here as "with" and take YHWH as the direct object.

When I search for the piel form of gadal, I get 7 instances besides Ps 34:4, where et is connected to gadal.
In all 7 of these, et is the pointer to the direct object.

This makes me think that the et in Ps 34:4 should also be the pointer to the direct object.

Also, YHWH, the supposed direct object of gadal in Ps 34:4 has the le prepositional prefix on it, normally making YHWH an indirect object rather than direct.
The only other place I could find where the le prefix is maybe used to modify the piel verb gadal is
‎ WTT 1 Chronicles 29: וְהָעֹ֤שֶׁר וְהַכָּבוֹד֙ מִלְּפָנֶ֔יךָ וְאַתָּה֙ מוֹשֵׁ֣ל בַּכֹּ֔ל וּבְיָדְךָ֖ כֹּ֣חַ וּגְבוּרָ֑ה וּבְיָ֣דְךָ֔ לְגַדֵּ֥ל וּלְחַזֵּ֖ק לַכֹּֽל׃
DBY 1 Chronicles 29:12 and riches and glory are of thee, and thou rulest over everything; and in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make all great and strong.
KJV 1 Chronicles 29:12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.

If I try to make et the direct object pointer in Ps 34:4, I get something too strange, in conflict with the rest of the psalm:
Magnify me to YHWH, and let us exalt his name together.

Gadal in Ps 34:4 could be taken as qal imperative, which would be intransitive, and then the et would mean "with" as it does in 1Ki 12:8,10; 2Ch 10:8,10. :
Ps 34:4 Grow up to the LORD with me, and let us exalt His name together.
The rest of the psalm seems to be an exhortation and instruction to grow up to the LORD. esp v12 (11).

Saboi wrote:Transitive
את־הנער "With the boy" (Gen 21:20) (μετὰ τοῦ παιδίου, cum puer, עמ־נער)
את־המלך "With the King" (2 Sam 19:34) (μετὰ τοῦ βασιλέως, cum rege, עמ־מלך)

These et's are connected to intransitive verbs
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Saboi
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Re: Gen 6:19 et = "with" or direct obj ptr

Postby Saboi » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:39 pm

In Psalm 34:4, את makes the יהוה accusative, this is demonstrated in the Latin and Greek version.

dominum, τὸν κύριον ; noun sg masc acc

It is the suffix that makes them accusative, the -ον, -um, perhaps cognate with עם, the alternate form of את.

-Divine Accusatives-
Δεύς - τὸν Δῆ
Ζεύς - τὸν Δία, τὸν ζᾶνα, את שדי (poetic; ζῆνα)
θεός - τὸν θεόν
Iove - Iovem
Lee Mcgee


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