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Re: Prov 30:3

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:25 am
by S_Walch
SteveMiller wrote:Thanks Ste. What did you mean by "transposes Prov 30:3 to Prov 24:26"?

Proverbs LXX/OG doesn't actually have a Chapter 30 or 31, but in fact has the words of chapter 30/31 in other chapters:

Proverbs 30:1-14 = Proverbs 24:24-37 LXX/OG
Proverbs 30:15-33 = Proverbs 24:50-68 LXX/OG
Proverbs 31:1-9 = Proverbs 24:69-77 LXX/OG
Proverbs 31:10-31 = Proverbs 29:28-49 LXX/OG

And even then, it's not like the verses line up in exactly the same order.

Likely seeing a different form of Proverbs in the LXX/OG

SteveMiller wrote:It would also require that LXX saw ‎לָמַ֥דְי in place of ‎ לָמַ֥דְתִּי.
LXX does make more sense, that God taught Agur wisdom, because v10 - end of the chapter are wisdom, rather than knowledge of the holy.

Indeed.

It all depends on what's more likely: the ו is being used differently to how it is normally in Proverbs 30:3, or there is a corruption of the text.

I lean more towards the latter than the former.

Re: Prov 30:3

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:50 pm
by Jemoh66
For the record the LXX actually reads closer to my translation

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the counsel of saints is understanding:

The Targum reads word for word like Hebrew,

שֵׁירוּי דְחָכְמְתָא דְחַלְתֵּיהּ דֶאֱלָהָא וִידִיעֲתָא דְקַדִישֵׁי בְיוּנָא:

The reference is either holy men, or perhaps the holy ones in the heavenly council.

Re: Prov 30:3

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:09 pm
by SteveMiller
S_Walch wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Thanks Ste. What did you mean by "transposes Prov 30:3 to Prov 24:26"?

Proverbs LXX/OG doesn't actually have a Chapter 30 or 31, but in fact has the words of chapter 30/31 in other chapters:

Proverbs 30:1-14 = Proverbs 24:24-37 LXX/OG
Proverbs 30:15-33 = Proverbs 24:50-68 LXX/OG
Proverbs 31:1-9 = Proverbs 24:69-77 LXX/OG
Proverbs 31:10-31 = Proverbs 29:28-49 LXX/OG

And even then, it's not like the verses line up in exactly the same order.

Likely seeing a different form of Proverbs in the LXX/OG

Thanks Ste, I didn't know that.

S_Walch wrote:It all depends on what's more likely: the ו is being used differently to how it is normally in Proverbs 30:3, or there is a corruption of the text.

I lean more towards the latter than the former.

The waw doesn't need to take a different meaning. It could say:
Neither have I learned wisdom, but knowledge of the Holy I know.

But I agree with you that the LXX text seems more accurate.

Re: Prov 30:3

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:16 pm
by SteveMiller
Jemoh66 wrote:For the record the LXX actually reads closer to my translation

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the counsel of saints is understanding:

The Targum reads word for word like Hebrew,

שֵׁירוּי דְחָכְמְתָא דְחַלְתֵּיהּ דֶאֱלָהָא וִידִיעֲתָא דְקַדִישֵׁי בְיוּנָא:

The reference is either holy men, or perhaps the holy ones in the heavenly council.


Yes, LXX for Prov 9:10 has your meaning. Thanks, Jonathan, for pointing that out.
קְדֹשִׁ֔ים can me more generally, "holy things", as in 2Chron 31:6, and in oft repeated phrase "holy of holies".

Re: Prov 30:3

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:48 pm
by Jason Hare
Mark Lightman wrote:
Kirk Lowery wrote:All of the "standard" translations take ‎לֹֽא as applying to both halves of the verse.

Cf. the Graecus Venetus: οὔτε ἔμαθον σοφίαν, καὶ γνῶσιν ἁγίων εἴσομαι.

It seems to me that this merely preserves the ambiguity.

Re: Prov 30:3

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:49 pm
by Jason Hare
kwrandolph wrote:Steve, there’s a fourth option, namely that the waw should be translated with a “that”. This is not common, but is found, most famously in Isaiah 53:2 “…he doesn’t have the looks that we should desire specifically him.” So we get in Proverbs 30:3 “I didn’t learn wisdom that I should know the knowledge of holy things.”

Karl W. Randolph.

I would definitely go along with this view.