קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

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Schubert
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Schubert » Sat May 18, 2019 7:01 pm

I agree with Dewayne and Jason. Utilizing subfora would be very helpful. It would make it simpler for those who want to focus on just one or two aspects of Biblical Hebrew, or conversely to ignore certain aspects.

One possible issue is the way in which folks subscribe to different parts of B-Hebrew. So that I don't miss anything of interest, I currently have a subscription to each of the separate fora within B-Hebrew. It would be good if, in the new system, it was not possible to start a thread in the parent part of what is now the "General Discussion" forum. This way, there would be no need to have a subscription to the parent General Discussion forum, which which would then include all subfora – whether a person was interested in a particular subforum or not. This might mean having an appropriately labeled general subforum within what is now "General Discussion". I hope this makes at least some sense.

And finally, thank you Kirk for the time you devote to running B-Hebrew.
John McKinnon

Isaac Fried
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Isaac Fried » Sat May 18, 2019 8:57 pm

Jason,

I looked up your site "the Hebrew cafe",
http://thehebrewcafe.com/
and in particular the section where you present to the novice student of Hebrew the conjugation of the verb אָכַל, starting with אָכַלְתָּ, 'you m. sg. ate'.
It seems to me that it would be pedagogically advantageous to extend and enhance the presentation by pointing out to the eager student that אָכַלְתָּ is apparently but the fusion of אכל-אתה. Logic and meaning will make things, I believe, stick better in his mind.
Then you will point out to him that
אָכַלְתְּ = אכל-את, 'you f. sg. ate'
אָכַלְנוּ = אכל-אנוּ, 'we ate'
אֲכַלְתֶּם = אכל-אתם, 'you m. pl. ate'
אֲכַלְתֶּן = אכל-אתן, 'you f. pl. ate'

The student will surely like it, but then he will be puzzled about
אָכַלְתִּי = אכל-אתי, 'I ate', why it is not אכלני = אכל-אני, he will want to know. You will explain this to him, to his great perspicacious delight. Then he will want to know why it is אָכְלוּ = אכל-הוּא, 'they ate', and not אכלם = אכל-הם. You will graciously tell them that אֲכָלָם is, 'he ate them'. Namely, it is all but the question of who did what to whom.

They will love you for this, and will surely come back for more.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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Jason Hare
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Jason Hare » Sun May 19, 2019 6:17 am

I prefer to use language in communication with comprehensible input (see Stephen Krashen). Grammar explanations are only used to fill in blanks. Seeing that you don't see what goes on in our sessions but only fill-in-the-blank materials that I add for explanation after-the-fact, I don't think that calling up things from my forum is entirely relevant to this discussion.

I will certainly not be telling them that אכלו is אכל-הוא when הוא has nothing to do with it.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

R.J. Furuli
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby R.J. Furuli » Mon May 20, 2019 2:52 am

Jason Hare wrote:


I prefer to use language in communication with comprehensible input (see Stephen Krashen). Grammar explanations are only used to fill in blanks. Seeing that you don't see what goes on in our sessions but only fill-in-the-blank materials that I add for explanation after-the-fact, I don't think that calling up things from my forum is entirely relevant to this discussion.


Dear Jason,

If I understand you correctly, I very much disagree with your view on Classical Hebrew grammar.

Children learn their mother tongue by listening to their parents and others, and they become fluent in their language without knowing a single grammatical rule. This is the “nature method.” Native speakers may also effectively communicate with other native speakers without knowing grammatical rules.

We cannot communicate with others in this way in Classical Hebrew, because it is a dead language, and there are no native speakers. It is impossible to understand Classical Hebrew if you do not have a good grasp of its grammar and syntax.

The course I most often taught at the University of Oslo was Intermediate Hebrew, with a stress on Classical Hebrew grammar and phonology. In addition to a study of the Tanakh, the course included a study of the tractate Avot in the Mishnah, some modern Hebrew, and either the Aramaic part of Daniel or the Aramaic Targums (the student could choose).

One time a brother and sister in their early twenties attended the course. Their parents were Norwegian. But they had grown up in Israel and were fluent in modern Hebrew. This would seem to be an advantage, but it turned out to be a handicap. Both of them had difficulties to stop thinking in modern Hebrew and instead thinking in Classical Hebrew. They got their exam. But the exam of all the Norwegian students was better.

My point is that Classical Hebrew is a very different language compared with modern Hebrew. You cannot learn this language by the “nature method,” and you cannot learn this language via modern Hebrew. You can only have a good command on Classical Hebrew by hard work, by a deep study of its grammar, phonology and vocabulary.

You are a native speaker of modern Hebrew, and I do not insinuate that this is a handicap in your study of Classical Hebrew. But it can be a handicap, as in the case with the two students, if a person does not realize that the structure of Classical Hebrew—its grammar and syntax, and even its vocabulary, is very different from modern Hebrew.

My conclusion is that Classical Hebrew grammar and syntax are very important for the students.



Best regards,


Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Schubert
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Schubert » Mon May 20, 2019 3:36 pm

Rolf, unlike you, I understood Jason's comments to be made in the context of Modern Hebrew, not Biblical Hebrew. Jason appeared to me to be responding to Isaac Fried's post concerning Jason's modern Hebrew forum.
John McKinnon

Isaac Fried
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon May 20, 2019 4:34 pm

Rolf J. Furuli wrote
My conclusion is that Classical Hebrew grammar and syntax are very important for the students.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Here is the statement of classical Hebrew grammar in its entirety

A Hebrew word is a root augmented by personal pronouns

The rest is אזיל וּגמוֹר go and study.
A good Hebrew grammar test would consist then of presenting the student with a word (verb), say אכלתני, and asking him what are the radical letters in this word. Then you may ask the student to explain who does what to whom in אכלתני.
On test #2 you may present the student with אכוּל and ask him to analyze it.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Isaac Fried
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon May 20, 2019 6:27 pm

Matters will become still more exciting on test #3, on which you will ask the student to analyze
אוֹכל, אוּכּל, אכוֹל, אכוּל, אכלוֹ, אכלוּ

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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Jason Hare
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Jason Hare » Tue May 21, 2019 1:10 am

Schubert wrote:Rolf, unlike you, I understood Jason's comments to be made in the context of Modern Hebrew, not Biblical Hebrew. Jason appeared to me to be responding to Isaac Fried's post concerning Jason's modern Hebrew forum.

This is precisely the case. I was talking about how I teach Hebrew and how I use my forum to supplement the lessons that I give (not as the basis of the lessons).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel


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