qml = "to dry up"?

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Sebastian Walter
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qml = "to dry up"?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

Got another one:
Recently I came across Accadian qamû "parched" (cf. CAD 13, p. 76).

Prolegomena: סוּף = "swamp, mud":

סוּף evidently doesn't refer to "reeds":
  1. The common etymology eg. ṭwfy => heb. סוּף doesn't work (eg. aw <≠> heb. וּ; cf. e.g. Ward 1976: The Semitic Biconsonantal Root sp and the common origin of Egyptian čwf and Hebrew sûp: „marsh(-plant)“, S. 346f.).
  2. סוּף is used in Ex 2:3,5; Is 19:6 und Jon 2:6. In Jon 2:6 it is located at the ocean floor, so "reed" doesn't make sense here. Also, none of the versions took סוּף as botanical expression.
  3. Hebrew already has קָנֶה="reeds".
=> Because of this, Copisarow, Ward, McQuitty and Overstreet proposed the etymology sem. sp => heb. סוּף "end, swamp" (cf. e.g. arab. sap "swamp"; sam. sp "swamp").
This makes sense: In Ex 2:3,5; Is 19,6; Jon 2:6 סוּף is located (1) on the ground and (2) near/in the water.
Cf. also Midrash Exodus on Ex 2:3,5: "R. Samuel bar Nachman said: This is to be understood as "swamp" [...]."; Syr (Jon 2:6): "ocean floor"; 8HevXIIgr Jon 2:6: "marshy ground".

קמל="dried up"?:

So, let's assume that סוּף means "swamp" and go on to קמל
קמל is used in
  • Is 19:6: "The canals will stink; the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and סוּף will קמל..." (NIV)
  • Is 33:9: "The land mourns and wastes away, Lebanon is ashamed and קמל; Sharon is like a desert, and Bashan and Carmel drop their leaves." (NIV (changed slightly))
=> Assuming סוּף refers to "swamp, marshy ground", קמל is used both times as predicate of a subject meaning something like "ground" (Is 19:6: swampy ground; Is 33:9: Lebanon); and both times it is used in the context of a process of drying out (Is 19:6: "the streams of Egypt will dry up"; Is 33:9: "Sharon is like a desert, and Bashan and Carmel drop their leaves").
"To wither" hardly matches this context. So I wonder whether one could associate heb. קמל with acc. qamû, interpret it as "to dry up" and translate:
  • Is 19:6: "The canals will stink; the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and the Nile mud will dry up..." (NIV)
  • Is 33:9: "The land mourns and wastes away, Lebanon is ashamed and dries up; Sharon is like a desert, and Bashan and Carmel drop their leaves."
But I'm not certain whether this is possible, since I don't speak Accadian. Hence the Post: What do you say?

Sebastian
R.J. Furuli
Posts: 158
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by R.J. Furuli »

Dear Sebastian,

Etymology is tricky business. And if it is difficult to find the origin of a word and its change of meaning through time in one language, it is much more difficult to draw conclusions regarding the meaning of a word by the help of words from cognate languages. For example, )AMAR in Hebrew means "say," whereas AMARU in Akkadian means "see; catch sight of," and AMMARA in Ge´ez means "show; indicate; tell; make a sign; demonstrate; instruct." We cannot draw any conclusion by comparing these words in the cognate languages.
Sebastian Walter wrote:Got another one:
Recently I came across Accadian qamû "parched" (cf. CAD 13, p. 76).

Prolegomena: סוּף = "swamp, mud":

סוּף evidently doesn't refer to "reeds":
  1. The common etymology eg. ṭwfy => heb. סוּף doesn't work (eg. aw <≠> heb. וּ; cf. e.g. Ward 1976: The Semitic Biconsonantal Root sp and the common origin of Egyptian čwf and Hebrew sûp: „marsh(-plant)“, S. 346f.).
  2. סוּף is used in Ex 2:3,5; Is 19:6 und Jon 2:6. In Jon 2:6 it is located at the ocean floor, so "reed" doesn't make sense here. Also, none of the versions took סוּף as botanical expression.
  3. Hebrew already has קָנֶה="reeds".
=> Because of this, Copisarow, Ward, McQuitty and Overstreet proposed the etymology sem. sp => heb. סוּף "end, swamp" (cf. e.g. arab. sap "swamp"; sam. sp "swamp").
This makes sense: In Ex 2:3,5; Is 19,6; Jon 2:6 סוּף is located (1) on the ground and (2) near/in the water.
Cf. also Midrash Exodus on Ex 2:3,5: "R. Samuel bar Nachman said: This is to be understood as "swamp" [...]."; Syr (Jon 2:6): "ocean floor"; 8HevXIIgr Jon 2:6: "marshy ground".

The two basic meanings of SWP found in lexicons are "reed" and "red," and I do not see that any of the passages above would contradict that. We should also remember that SWP in the name YM SWP (Exodus 15:4, 5) hardly can refer to a swamp.

קמל="dried up"?:

So, let's assume that סוּף means "swamp" and go on to קמל
קמל is used in
  • Is 19:6: "The canals will stink; the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and סוּף will קמל..." (NIV)
  • Is 33:9: "The land mourns and wastes away, Lebanon is ashamed and קמל; Sharon is like a desert, and Bashan and Carmel drop their leaves." (NIV (changed slightly))
=> Assuming סוּף refers to "swamp, marshy ground", קמל is used both times as predicate of a subject meaning something like "ground" (Is 19:6: swampy ground; Is 33:9: Lebanon); and both times it is used in the context of a process of drying out (Is 19:6: "the streams of Egypt will dry up"; Is 33:9: "Sharon is like a desert, and Bashan and Carmel drop their leaves").
"To wither" hardly matches this context. So I wonder whether one could associate heb. קמל with acc. qamû, interpret it as "to dry up" and translate:
  • Is 19:6: "The canals will stink; the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and the Nile mud will dry up..." (NIV)
  • Is 33:9: "The land mourns and wastes away, Lebanon is ashamed and dries up; Sharon is like a desert, and Bashan and Carmel drop their leaves."
But I'm not certain whether this is possible, since I don't speak Accadian. Hence the Post: What do you say?

The meaning of QML is not certain, but many scholars take it in the sense "to wilt; to become black." The Akkadian verb QAMU means "to burn (up)," and the meaning of the adjective QAMU is "burnt; parched." The circumflex above the last vowel suggest a contraction. But there is no evidence that the contracted sound is an "L." So there is no clear connection with Akkadian QAMU and Hebrew QAMAL, although their meanings are not far apart. If we deviate from the basic meaning of a word in our translation, we should have good evidence for the meaning we choose. I cannot see that this is the case with "swamp; marshy ground."


Best regards,


Rolf Furuli
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Sebastian
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George Athas
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by George Athas »

No comment here on the correctness of the etymology per se, but the claim that Egyptian ṭwfy can't become Hebrew סוף because aw <≠> heb. וּ is false. The diphthong aw regularly shows up in later (Tiberian) Hebrew as a vocalic ו. Also, it's not uncommon for loanword proper nouns to take on the meaning of a common noun in Hebrew. Take, for example, יאר, which usually denotes the Nile, but also ends up referring to streams or canals more generically.
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Sebastian Walter
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

George:
Ah? Ok, I didn't know that. I trusted Ward - he wrote:
It is unlikely that the Hebrew term was borrowed from Egyptian, or vice-versa, as the phonetic problems clearly indicate. When [1] Egyptian č was borrowed into a foreign language, it normally was reflected as z; few examples can be quoted, but they are consistent. Thus, because of the initial consonent, a shift Egy. *čawf > Hebr. sûp is not possible. This is further substantiated by the vocalization: [2] an original aw would become ô in Hebrew, not û.
Huddleston (in ABD, Lemma "Red Sea") rejects (1), but (2) he seems to accept.

Plus: There are some more problems with eg. ṭwfy => heb.סוּף="reeds":
  1. ṭwfy is attested only in New Egyptian Texts (cf. e.g. WbÄS V 359; ThWAT, S. 795)
  2. The etymology seems to have it's origin in a misquotation: Brugsch-Bey is considered the "inventor" of this etymology. But Brugsch-Bey thought that ṭwfy originated in סוּף; not the other way round. Nevertheless, e.g. Erhard 1892 quoted Brugsch-Bey as follows: " „ṭwf [...] Papyrus: סוּף Schilf (Brugsch). - Das hebr. Wort ist entlehnt“ (S. 122) [ „ṭwf [...] papyrus: סוּף reeds (Brugsch). - The Hebrew word is borrowed.]"
  3. It is frequently said that yam-sup="Sea of Reeds" is problematic because neither the shore of the Red Sea, nor the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba, nor the shore of the Suez Canal is overgrown with Reeds. Don't know whether this is true.
So Ward is wrong?

Rolf:
The two basic meanings of SWP found in lexicons are "reed" and "red," and I do not see that any of the passages above would contradict that. We should also remember that SWP in the name YM SWP (Exodus 15:4, 5) hardly can refer to a swamp.
But Jon 2:6 is problematic, isn't it? Because of this reason, סוּף is discussed in nearly every commentary on Jonah. Also, because of this verse most dictionaries nowadays list סוּף as (1) reeds (Ex 2:3.5; Is 19:6); (2) seaweed (Jon 2:6).
+ Theoretically, SWP in YM SWP could refer to "swamp". There is an old explanation of the name "Red Sea" (Mare rubrum, erythra thalassa) by some Greek Historians: The Red Sea is ruddled because of the red Red Sea mud, and because of this it is called the "Red Sea".
Of course, this is somewhat forced. I'm not even sure whether I like the explanation sp>סוּף="swamp" myself. But the fact remains that today this explanation has at least the four aforenamed advocates and that "mud covered my head (at the bottom of the sea)" seems to make more sense than "reeds entwined my head (at the bottom of the sea)" (cf. Ps 69:15: "Rescue me from the mire, do not let me sink; deliver me from those who hate me, from the deep waters!").

But even if Jon 2:6 stops to be problematic as soon as one assumes סוּף="swamp", now instead Is 19:6 is the problematic verse, so nothing is won by that. And that's the reason I wonder whether one could strengthen this position by reinterpreting קמל.

Best regards,
Sebastian Walter
R.J. Furuli
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by R.J. Furuli »

Dear Sebastian,

We may repeat some fundamentals of lexical semantics. The letters or sounds of a word have no meaning in themselves. But they signal a concept in the mind of native speakers. This concept usually has a clear core (therefore, we can speak of a basic meaning), but becomes more fuzzy towards the edges. How are such concepts used in communication? Ogden's triangle illustrates the situation. At one corner it has "sign" (letters or sounds of a word), at the other two corners it has "concept" and "reference." It is very important to distinguish between "concept" and "reference," and I illustrate it this way: The sign is QEREN, and the core meaning is "horn." The references are the things in the world denoted by the word, namely, horn of animals; perfume box; receptable; light rays (because they can seem like horns); strength and dignity. The concepts are often broader and the possible references often are more numerous in Hebrew compared with English. Consider for example all the references of YD and KLY.

If we apply the points above to Jonah 2:5, I see no problem in the view that SWP in this verse signals the same concept as SWP in Exodus 2:3, 5 and Isaiah 19:6. The object of reference in Jonah 2:5 needs not be exactly the same plants as in the other passages. NIV and several other translations uses "seeweed" which may signal the same concept. The references of a concept usually have something in common, but they need not be of the same kind. So "swamp" is not so dissimilar with "reed" that it could not be a reference of the same concept. But—and this is very important—to establish a new reference, there must be clear evidence.

Even though the word study of dead languages does not have anything to do with the natural sciences, the hypothetic deductive method is at work also in the humanities. We form a hypothesis, we find what it predicts, and we look to see if the predictions come true. If the predictions fit our data, have we proved that our hypothesis is correct? Absolutely not, because there are many other hypotheses and viewpoints that can account for the data. On the other hand, if the predictions do not come true, our hypothesis is falsified. We should keep this in mind when we look for alternative references of a concept, and we must always ask ourselves if the conclusion we draw is well founded. So far I do not see clear evidence in favor of "swamp."

Rolf:
The two basic meanings of SWP found in lexicons are "reed" and "red," and I do not see that any of the passages above would contradict that. We should also remember that SWP in the name YM SWP (Exodus 15:4, 5) hardly can refer to a swamp.
But Jon 2:6 is problematic, isn't it? Because of this reason, סוּף is discussed in nearly every commentary on Jonah. Also, because of this verse most dictionaries nowadays list סוּף as (1) reeds (Ex 2:3.5; Is 19:6); (2) seaweed (Jon 2:6).
+ Theoretically, SWP in YM SWP could refer to "swamp". There is an old explanation of the name "Red Sea" (Mare rubrum, erythra thalassa) by some Greek Historians: The Red Sea is ruddled because of the red Red Sea mud, and because of this it is called the "Red Sea".
Of course, this is somewhat forced. I'm not even sure whether I like the explanation sp>סוּף="swamp" myself. But the fact remains that today this explanation has at least the four aforenamed advocates and that "mud covered my head (at the bottom of the sea)" seems to make more sense than "reeds entwined my head (at the bottom of the sea)" (cf. Ps 69:15: "Rescue me from the mire, do not let me sink; deliver me from those who hate me, from the deep waters!").

But even if Jon 2:6 stops to be problematic as soon as one assumes סוּף="swamp", now instead Is 19:6 is the problematic verse, so nothing is won by that. And that's the reason I wonder whether one could strengthen this position by reinterpreting קמל.

Best regards,
Sebastian Walter[/quote]
Sebastian Walter
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

Dear Rolf:
NIV and several other translations uses "seeweed" which may signal the same concept. The references of a concept usually have something in common, but they need not be of the same kind. So "swamp" is not so dissimilar with "reed" that it could not be a reference of the same concept. But—and this is very important—to establish a new reference, there must be clear evidence.
So you´d say that the concept signaled by סוּף might refer both to "reeds" and to either "swamp" or "seaweeds" - did I understand you right? This of course would be the best solution (And one could refer for both cases to exegetes / dictionaries: KBL3 lists as סוּף's basic meaning not "reeds", but "water plant" (=> "reeds" + "seaweed"); Ward thinks that סוּף can refer both to "swamp" and "swamp plant").

But in this case: Are you sure about preferring "seaweeds" to "swamp"?
I'm asking because "swamp" can be backed up by LXX (Ex 2:3, 5), Midrash Exodus (Ex 2:3, 5), 8HevXIIgr (Jon 2:6) and probably Syr (Jon 2:6); "seaweeds" instead seems to be a relatively new translation suggestion (compared to "swamp").

Best regards,
Sebastian Walter
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by Isaac Fried »

The Hebrew root קמל QML is a variant of GML, XML, QML
גמל, חמל, קמל
'heap'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Isaac Fried
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by Isaac Fried »

The word סוף SUP is apparently a variant of סעיף SAIYP, 'branch', as in Is. 27:10. Also עשב ESEB and אזוב EZOB, 'grass'. Also מ-ספוא MI-SPO, 'straw, fodder', as in Ge. 24:25.

We have also the post biblical סיף SAYIP, 'blade, sword', and סיב SIYB, 'fibre'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
R.J. Furuli
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by R.J. Furuli »

Dear Sebastian,

The basic meanings of SWP is "reed" and "red." My point is that I do not exclude references such as "seaweeds" and "swamp". But when such references are introduced, we need clear evidence. And this evidence is lacking! Even in Jonah 2:6 the reference "reed" is not impossible, because the exact position of Jonah is not stated. He was in "the deep" (a relative word), and he could have been depicted as at one point being in shallow water with reeds.

It is not possible to find the references of Hebrew words by help of the LXX or Syriac texts. The quality of the different LXX books is different, and the Syriac translation were made several hundred years after the book of Jonah was written. Moreover, when we translate from one language to another, we may loose something or add something, because the concepts signaled by the words may have different ranges in two different languages. Therefore, to find the meaning and references of Hebrew words, we can only use the Hebrew text itself. In doing so, we must also be open for a change of meaning and references through time.

Sebastian Walter wrote:Dear Rolf:
NIV and several other translations uses "seeweed" which may signal the same concept. The references of a concept usually have something in common, but they need not be of the same kind. So "swamp" is not so dissimilar with "reed" that it could not be a reference of the same concept. But—and this is very important—to establish a new reference, there must be clear evidence.
So you´d say that the concept signaled by סוּף might refer both to "reeds" and to either "swamp" or "seaweeds" - did I understand you right? This of course would be the best solution (And one could refer for both cases to exegetes / dictionaries: KBL3 lists as סוּף's basic meaning not "reeds", but "water plant" (=> "reeds" + "seaweed"); Ward thinks that סוּף can refer both to "swamp" and "swamp plant").

But in this case: Are you sure about preferring "seaweeds" to "swamp"?
I'm asking because "swamp" can be backed up by LXX (Ex 2:3, 5), Midrash Exodus (Ex 2:3, 5), 8HevXIIgr (Jon 2:6) and probably Syr (Jon 2:6); "seaweeds" instead seems to be a relatively new translation suggestion (compared to "swamp").

Best regards,
Sebastian Walter


Best regards,


Rolf Furuli
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Sebastian Walter
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Re: qml = "to dry up"?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

Dear Rolf,
Even in Jonah 2:6 the reference "reed" is not impossible, because the exact position of Jonah is not stated. He was in "the deep" (a relative word), and he could have been depicted as at one point being in shallow water with reeds.
On this I'd disagree. Don't get me wrong, I totally acknowledge that you are more competent in these kind of questions than myself. But I am well read in literature on Jonah; hence I know this: At least since Magonet it is frequently said that one of the structuring principles of the Jonah psalm is the consecutive descent of Jonah to the bottom of the sea.
Magonet, p. 40:
"The stages of descent in "Jonah" are described with almost "geographical" exactitude: at first the "flood," the breakers and waves pass over him; he descends further to the base of the mountains till the very earth closes over him.
I must say this description matches the text of the Jonah psalm quite well. I wouldn't take it for granted, but I think one should at least take it as starting point when discussing Jon 2:6. After all, this assumption is the reason for most discussions of סוּף in literature on Jonah.

Best regards,
Sebastian Walter
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