Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

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kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

SteveMiller wrote:
Jemoh66 wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Jonathan,
Why is it ok for Naaman to bow down to idols, but not ok for Daniel and his friends?

Hi Jonathan,
I think the answer is, as you said, that Naaman was not in a covenant relationship with the God of Israel. That is what I meant by, Naaman is not really a convert or an Israelite.
Daniel and his friends could not ask God permission to violate the 2nd commandment. Neither could any Israelite. But Naaman could, and it was granted.
Who says that Naaman was not a convert? In 2 Kings 5:18 he asks for forgiveness that he has to bow down while helping his lord (king) to worship, that the physical helping of his lord forces him also to bow down physically, while not worshipping the false god. That indicates that he recognized that Israel’s God is the only true God.

There was no requirement at that time that a worshipper of the true God become a member of the Israelite nation. Job is a perfect example of this, who for his special holiness was mentioned in Ezekiel 14:14, 20 yet there’s no indication that he ever was counted as an Israelite.

Karl W. Randolph.
seekinganswers
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:10 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by seekinganswers »

Mr. Levin and/or Mr. Mohler,

It seems I made a point to this person (who is not me, nor my friend), with your help. He refuses to acknowledge the issue of "ger" being a non-Israelite, but he will no longer pursue the argument.

Now I am dealing with something different and I'm hoping you can offer me some help.

This person is saying that "AYSh" always and without fail means "male" throughout the Old Testament; ;that it NEVER includes females. Is that accurate?

He also says:
...every "kings of the earth" text in scripture was referring to people who were occupying the Promised Land after it belonged to the Israelites. There is nothing (grammatically or logically) to support your arbitrary conclusion that "sons of God" (Genesis 6:2) were known as "kings of the earth" or that those terms referred to heathen "city states."
He also says:
Genesis 31:32 and Genesis 35:2 does not help your argument because "gods" in those passages was not referring to "rulers of heathen city-states" either! Nobody is denying that ALHYM can occasionally be translated "gods
and...
This issue we have is that there is no exegetical basis in the context of Genesis 6:2 (or the pre-Abahamic genealogies) to force the term ALHYM to be translated "gods" or "rulers.
Can you help out with this when you have some time?

Sincerely,

Dustin...
seekinganswers
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:10 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by seekinganswers »

Mr. Miller,

Mr. Mohler says:

"This is the same thing as trying to make Goy or Goyim carry the post biblical idea that the Goyim are non-Jews."

Doesn't this intimate that the "goy" or "goyim" in Romans 9-11 ARE in fact Israelites rather than "non-Jews?"

Dustin...
kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

seekinganswers wrote:Mr. Miller,

Mr. Mohler says:

"This is the same thing as trying to make Goy or Goyim carry the post biblical idea that the Goyim are non-Jews."

Doesn't this intimate that the "goy" or "goyim" in Romans 9-11 ARE in fact Israelites rather than "non-Jews?"

Dustin...
No way!

“Nation” (goy) was used most of the time in the Old Testament to refer to non-Israelite nations. Only a relatively few times was it used to refer to Israel, just enough times to show that it means “nation” and not “gentile”.

As far as Paul, he wrote in Greek, and the word he used, εθνος, had a different meaning than did גוי “goy” in Hebrew. Therefore it’s incorrect to use Paul’s use of εθνος as an indication of how we should understand גוי in Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.
kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

seekinganswers wrote:It seems I made a point to this person (who is not me, nor my friend), with your help. He refuses to acknowledge the issue of "ger" being a non-Israelite, but he will no longer pursue the argument.
There was a radio personality (recently deceased) who used to say that such type of people are those who say “Don’t confuse me with the facts, let me believe what I want to believe.”
seekinganswers wrote:Now I am dealing with something different and I'm hoping you can offer me some help.

This person is saying that "AYSh" always and without fail means "male" throughout the Old Testament; ;that it NEVER includes females. Is that accurate?
No, not only that, it doesn’t always refer to a person. I don’t have time right now to look up references.
seekinganswers wrote:He also says:
...every "kings of the earth" text in scripture was referring to people who were occupying the Promised Land after it belonged to the Israelites. There is nothing (grammatically or logically) to support your arbitrary conclusion that "sons of God" (Genesis 6:2) were known as "kings of the earth" or that those terms referred to heathen "city states."
This is ridiculous, as Genesis 6 refers to centuries before Israel was founded as a nation, in fact centuries before Israel was born.
seekinganswers wrote:He also says:
Genesis 31:32 and Genesis 35:2 does not help your argument because "gods" in those passages was not referring to "rulers of heathen city-states" either! Nobody is denying that ALHYM can occasionally be translated "gods
and...
This issue we have is that there is no exegetical basis in the context of Genesis 6:2 (or the pre-Abahamic genealogies) to force the term ALHYM to be translated "gods" or "rulers.
Can you help out with this when you have some time?
Are you still dealing with the guy directly, or is this through others whom he influences?

Karl W. Randolph.
seekinganswers
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:10 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by seekinganswers »

Mr. Randolph,
There was a radio personality (recently deceased) who used to say that such type of people are those who say “Don’t confuse me with the facts, let me believe what I want to believe.”
It's very fitting. And please understand that my questions here aren't so much for the purpose of going elsewhere and convincing a pig-headed and prideful person. It's more for my own study, research and edification, quite honestly.
No, not only that, it doesn’t always refer to a person. I don’t have time right now to look up references.
If you could provide references whenever you have time that would be greatly appreciated. Currently I'm using an online Strongs and this version http://www.coyhwh.com/en/bible.php.

When you have time can you address his quotes regarding Genesis 31:32, 35:2, and 6:2?
Are you still dealing with the guy directly, or is this through others whom he influences?
This is direct communication. I've asked him to come here. He refuses.

Blessings,

Dustin...
kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

seekinganswers wrote:When you have time can you address his quotes regarding Genesis 31:32, 35:2, and 6:2?
Genesis 31:32 and 35:2 both refer to idols. The first to Jacob’s father-in-law’s idols, and the second to the idols apparently brought by the slaves Jacob bought.

Genesis 6:2 is subject to much speculation of a theological kind, so I won’t go into that here.
seekinganswers wrote:
Are you still dealing with the guy directly, or is this through others whom he influences?
This is direct communication. I've asked him to come here. He refuses.
That’s a waste of time. If I were you, I’d break off communication, saying that he obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking about, which ignorance he shows by not daring to debate with true experts.

Karl W. Randolph.
JLVaughn
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:28 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by JLVaughn »

Karl,

Unfortunately, the person Dustin is asking about is an anonymous troll who has the backing of one of that forum's administrators. I met Dustin and Joe on that forum, so except for this individual, the forum is otherwise productive. We do know that this person does have significant influence on at least that administrator, making it important that we answer the troll's claims.

Jeff
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SteveMiller
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Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by SteveMiller »

kwrandolph wrote:
seekinganswers wrote:Mr. Miller,

Mr. Mohler says:

"This is the same thing as trying to make Goy or Goyim carry the post biblical idea that the Goyim are non-Jews."

Doesn't this intimate that the "goy" or "goyim" in Romans 9-11 ARE in fact Israelites rather than "non-Jews?"

Dustin...
No way!

“Nation” (goy) was used most of the time in the Old Testament to refer to non-Israelite nations. Only a relatively few times was it used to refer to Israel, just enough times to show that it means “nation” and not “gentile”.

As far as Paul, he wrote in Greek, and the word he used, εθνος, had a different meaning than did גוי “goy” in Hebrew. Therefore it’s incorrect to use Paul’s use of εθνος as an indication of how we should understand גוי in Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.
Goy, singular, in OT does not mean non-Jew. It just means nation, which could refer to the nation of Israel. As Jonathan said, goy, meaning non-Jew is post-Biblical.
However, ha-goyim, the nations, almost always means the non-Jews. An exception would be the phrase "all the goyim", which may include Israel.
I don't see why you would think that the gentiles in Rom 9-11 are Jews.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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SteveMiller
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Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by SteveMiller »

kwrandolph wrote:
Who says that Naaman was not a convert? In 2 Kings 5:18 he asks for forgiveness that he has to bow down while helping his lord (king) to worship, that the physical helping of his lord forces him also to bow down physically, while not worshipping the false god. That indicates that he recognized that Israel’s God is the only true God.

There was no requirement at that time that a worshipper of the true God become a member of the Israelite nation. Job is a perfect example of this, who for his special holiness was mentioned in Ezekiel 14:14, 20 yet there’s no indication that he ever was counted as an Israelite.

Karl W. Randolph.
Job was pre-Mosaic covenant, so different rules applied. The chosen nation Israel did not exist yet.

I agree that in the sense you mean, Naaman was a convert. But he did not become part of Israel and did not enter into the Mosaic covenant relationship with God. He would be one of those addressed by Paul in the New Testament as, "You who fear God" (Acts 13:16). This is not the same as a proselyte who becomes an Israelite.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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