Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

For discussions which focus upon specific words, their origin, meaning, relationship to other ANE languages.
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
kwrandolph
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

SteveMiller wrote:Job was pre-Mosaic covenant, so different rules applied. The chosen nation Israel did not exist yet.
Actually, we don’t know when Job lived.

Stylistically, it appears to me that Job was fairly late pre-Babylonian Exile.

I’ve noticed that there was a development of Biblical Hebrew literary style from Moses to the Babylonian Exile, a development that was broken by the Babylonian Exile and those who wrote afterwards wrote in a simple style typical of those who were not native speakers of the language. Using that development as a rough guide, the literary style in Job has a lot more in common with Jeremiah than with Moses. Hence I put Job as having lived during the Divided Kingdom era.

Karl W. Randolph.
kwrandolph
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

JLVaughn wrote:Karl,

Unfortunately, the person Dustin is asking about is an anonymous troll who has the backing of one of that forum's administrators. I met Dustin and Joe on that forum, so except for this individual, the forum is otherwise productive. We do know that this person does have significant influence on at least that administrator, making it important that we answer the troll's claims.

Jeff
An old saying, “There’s more than one way to skin a cat.”

You can address the troll’s ideas without addressing the troll directly. When others parrot the troll’s ideas, you can deal with the others. Others usually are more open-minded, willing to consider all sides of a question.

Trying to deal with the troll directly can be most frustrating. I have now developed what I call “No Answer Lists” of people I refuse to answer, no matter how outrageous a statement the troll writes.

For example, there are two people on this list who I consider trolls, one of whom writes essays and treats this list as his private blog. I now refuse to engage those people directly, and usually don’t read what they write. I don’t know why the moderators allow them to continue to post on this forum, as most other members of this forum now ignore them.

Another way to deal with the troll’s ideas is to present other positive ideas that indirectly refute those trollish ideas. Then you deal with the positive, not the negative of refuting trolldom.

Karl W. Randolph.
Jemoh66
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by Jemoh66 »

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
seekinganswers wrote:Mr. Miller,

Mr. Mohler says:

"This is the same thing as trying to make Goy or Goyim carry the post biblical idea that the Goyim are non-Jews."

Doesn't this intimate that the "goy" or "goyim" in Romans 9-11 ARE in fact Israelites rather than "non-Jews?"

Dustin...
No way!

“Nation” (goy) was used most of the time in the Old Testament to refer to non-Israelite nations. Only a relatively few times was it used to refer to Israel, just enough times to show that it means “nation” and not “gentile”.

As far as Paul, he wrote in Greek, and the word he used, εθνος, had a different meaning than did גוי “goy” in Hebrew. Therefore it’s incorrect to use Paul’s use of εθνος as an indication of how we should understand גוי in Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.
Goy, singular, in OT does not mean non-Jew. It just means nation, which could refer to the nation of Israel. As Jonathan said, goy, meaning non-Jew is post-Biblical.
However, ha-goyim, the nations, almost always means the non-Jews. An exception would be the phrase "all the goyim", which may include Israel.
I don't see why you would think that the gentiles in Rom 9-11 are Jews.
Thanks for clarifying my point, Steve. Yes, what I was getting at is that Dustin's friend is using an anachronistic argument, not to mention forcing his theological preconceptions onto a simple word. Moses addressed these words to the Children of Israel while still in the wilderness. So Moses' words are looking forward to a later time when they will have settled. At that time, he anticipates the presence of garim among them, which is a sensible thing to expect. People move about for all sorts of reasons, such as business, flight, survival, etc... The law will accommodate this, as it lays out for the inhabitants what the protocol will be. Dustin, your friend's point of view demands a convoluted definition of ger where a simple definition fits quite well in the context. He should allow the normal use of language to give meaning to the text, and subsequently frame his theology based on that meaning. This is not a forum on logic, but I would add that he is using a false circular argument, by making his conclusion one of his premises.

Jonathan E. Mohler
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
Jemoh66
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by Jemoh66 »

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Job was pre-Mosaic covenant, so different rules applied. The chosen nation Israel did not exist yet.
Actually, we don’t know when Job lived.

Stylistically, it appears to me that Job was fairly late pre-Babylonian Exile.

I’ve noticed that there was a development of Biblical Hebrew literary style from Moses to the Babylonian Exile, a development that was broken by the Babylonian Exile and those who wrote afterwards wrote in a simple style typical of those who were not native speakers of the language. Using that development as a rough guide, the literary style in Job has a lot more in common with Jeremiah than with Moses. Hence I put Job as having lived during the Divided Kingdom era.

Karl W. Randolph.
It is my understanding that linguists classify the language of Job with that of the song of Moses and the song of Deborah, which are all considered to be the oldest Hebrew in the scriptures. It is also my understanding that this accounts for some obscurities in the language of Job. Unfortunately I picked this up from a lecture on semantics given by a Concordia professor. I have no sources for it.

Jonathan E. Mohler
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
kwrandolph
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

Jemoh66 wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Actually, we don’t know when Job lived.

Stylistically, it appears to me that Job was fairly late pre-Babylonian Exile.

… Using that development as a rough guide, the literary style in Job has a lot more in common with Jeremiah than with Moses. Hence I put Job as having lived during the Divided Kingdom era.
It is my understanding that linguists classify the language of Job with that of the song of Moses and the song of Deborah, which are all considered to be the oldest Hebrew in the scriptures. It is also my understanding that this accounts for some obscurities in the language of Job. Unfortunately I picked this up from a lecture on semantics given by a Concordia professor. I have no sources for it.

Jonathan E. Mohler
What you just wrote is what I was taught in class.

I’d like to see the reasoning, but my personal observations seem to indicate that the literary style is largely late rather than early.

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by Isaac Fried »

Appears to me that גוי GOY is a possessor גאות GEUT, 'stature', or גו GEW, or גב GAB, or גוף GUP, 'body'. Onkelos translates the אל תוך הים of Ex. 14:23 as לגו ימא L-GO YAMA.
Recall also 1Ch. 17:21
מי כעמך ישראל גוי אחד בארץ
that has a popular tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Q1zROybRI

Isaac Fried, Boston University
User avatar
SteveMiller
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:53 pm
Location: Detroit, MI, USA
Contact:

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by SteveMiller »

kwrandolph wrote:
Stylistically, it appears to me that Job was fairly late pre-Babylonian Exile.

I’ve noticed that there was a development of Biblical Hebrew literary style from Moses to the Babylonian Exile, a development that was broken by the Babylonian Exile and those who wrote afterwards wrote in a simple style typical of those who were not native speakers of the language. Using that development as a rough guide, the literary style in Job has a lot more in common with Jeremiah than with Moses. Hence I put Job as having lived during the Divided Kingdom era.

Karl W. Randolph.
Based on the lifespan of Job, 200+ years, (LXX says 240), he should have lived before Abraham. By the end of the 40 years wandering in the wilderness, life span was 70-80, at which it has stayed until recently.

His wealth is measured, not by money, but in the amount of livestock that he owned, which was the measure of patriarchal times.

The style from reading English translations seems to me to be similar to Solomon's writing. I could not comment on the Hebrew style, except that it has an awful lot of hapaxes compared to other books, which would seem to place the writing very early. It may be that Job lived pre-Abraham, but the book was written later.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
kwrandolph
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by kwrandolph »

SteveMiller wrote:Based on the lifespan of Job, 200+ years, (LXX says 240), he should have lived before Abraham. By the end of the 40 years wandering in the wilderness, life span was 70-80, at which it has stayed until recently.
I looked at the Aleppo version, and it doesn’t give an age at all.

But people have lived much longer than 70–80, even fairly recently. There was a man who died in China in the 1930s who was apparently well over 200 (the inspiration for the novel Shangri La), and one in England in the 1800s died at about 150, in the Bible Aaron was 123 and Moses himself 120 when they died. 2 Chronicles 24:15 Yehoyadaa the priest was 130 at his death. (They’re not counted by modern historians because they weren’t issued duly notarized birth certificates upon their births.) God could very well have extended Job’s life even fairly late in history.
SteveMiller wrote:His wealth is measured, not by money, but in the amount of livestock that he owned, which was the measure of patriarchal times.
That’s a cultural thing, even fairly late in history. In the Old West, in the 1880s, U.S. cattlemen measured their wealth in the number of livestock, not money. There are places even today where wealth is measured in cattle, not money, so this argument is weak at best.
SteveMiller wrote:The style from reading English translations seems to me to be similar to Solomon's writing. I could not comment on the Hebrew style, except that it has an awful lot of hapaxes compared to other books, which would seem to place the writing very early. It may be that Job lived pre-Abraham, but the book was written later.
I haven’t made a detailed investigation, but some of the late prophets also had many hapaxes as a percentage of words used. On the whole, I find Job easier to read than some other passages. In fact, one of the signs of the later prophets is that they use many hapaxes or rarely used terms.

Karl W. Randolph.
User avatar
SteveMiller
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:53 pm
Location: Detroit, MI, USA
Contact:

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by SteveMiller »

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Based on the lifespan of Job, 200+ years, (LXX says 240), he should have lived before Abraham. By the end of the 40 years wandering in the wilderness, life span was 70-80, at which it has stayed until recently.
I looked at the Aleppo version, and it doesn’t give an age at all. .
Aleppo codex has the book of Job all the way to the end, including that Job lived an additional 140 years afterwards. http://www.allepocodex.org
I saw that Crosswire ends Aleppo at 42:5. I don't know why that would be since the same page of Alleppo that has 42:1-5 also has the rest of Job and the beginning of Proverbs.
kwrandolph wrote:But people have lived much longer than 70–80, even fairly recently. There was a man who died in China in the 1930s who was apparently well over 200 (the inspiration for the novel Shangri La), and one in England in the 1800s died at about 150, in the Bible Aaron was 123 and Moses himself 120 when they died. 2 Chronicles 24:15 Yehoyadaa the priest was 130 at his death. (They’re not counted by modern historians because they weren’t issued duly notarized birth certificates upon their births.) God could very well have extended Job’s life even fairly late in history.
Moses and Aaron were 2 generations before the generation that entered Canaan, which is what I meant by the end of the 40 years wandering.
Thanks for the info about Jehoida. I didn't realize that anyone lived that long after Joshua. That's still a lot less than Job.
kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:His wealth is measured, not by money, but in the amount of livestock that he owned, which was the measure of patriarchal times.
That’s a cultural thing, even fairly late in history. In the Old West, in the 1880s, U.S. cattlemen measured their wealth in the number of livestock, not money. There are places even today where wealth is measured in cattle, not money, so this argument is weak at best.
It is not a strong argument. Another less strong one is that Job received kesitahs (42:11), which were only used in Gen 33:19, when Jacob bought the field of Shechem, quoted by Josh 24:32.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
JLVaughn
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:28 pm

Re: Foreigners, sojourners, strangers

Post by JLVaughn »

Karl, Steve,

The LXX seems to make Job a descendant of Esau, a king of some small city-state in Edom, and approximately contemporary with Moses.

Does anyone know if the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Job has the same ending as the LXX or the Masoretic?

Jeff
Post Reply