KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
KKR = “circle”. But the Jordan River Valley runs straight north and south, and there’s nothing circular about it. So what then is the KKR/circle of the Jordan, that is [at Genesis 13: 10-11] “the plain of the Jordan” : KKR H-YRDN, or in shortened form as just KKR [at Genesis 13: 12; 19: 17, 25, 28-29] “the plain” : H-KKR?
The KKR of the Jordan is the roughly circular region adjacent to the Jordan River Valley at Beth Shan, which is the breadbasket of Canaan, namely the greater Jezreel Valley, truly being a fertile “plain” [although that KJV translation does not directly reflect that KKR means “circle”]. The KKR/circle of the Jordan is bounded by: (i) Beth Shan on the east; (ii) Afula on the north; (iii) Megiddo on the west; and (iv) the city of Jezreel on the south; provided that this phrase also likely extends southwest to Rehov as well, just south of Beth Shan. Lot was likely living at Rehov, just south of Beth Shan, with Lot as such being in the KKR of the Jordan, very close to the Jezreel Valley . Genesis 13: 10 says that the KKR/circle of the Jordan was “well watered every where”, meaning that there are plenty of rivers and streams in the Jezreel Valley, which is the best land in Canaan.
The only two cities that are named as being in the KKR/circle of the Jordan are “Sodom” and “Gomorrah”, being generic names for cities of “good fields”. Genesis 13: 12; 18: 16, 20, 22, 26; 19: 24, 28. Please note that although the three cities Admah, Zeboiim and Bela are noted at Genesis 14: 2, 8 as being members of a league of five rebellious parties, those three cities are never stated to be in the KKR/circle of the Jordan, nor are they said to be destroyed when the Sodom of Lot and Melchizedek is, along with Gomorrah, destroyed in chapter 19 of Genesis as being the “cities of the plain/KKR”. Admah, Zeboiim and Bela are not located anywhere near the Jordan River Valley, nor are they located in Canaan.
Likewise, note that Bera, who is mentioned by name solely at Genesis 14: 2, is the ruler of the Sodom that is located close to Admah, Zeboiim and Bela, not the Sodom that is located near the Jezreel Valley in Canaan. By sharp contrast, Abram and Melchizedek interact with the unnamed ruler of the Sodom that is located in the KKR/circle of the Jordan, in Canaan, near the Jezreel Valley. Bera either dies, or is captured, at Genesis 14: 10. A few days later, Abram doesn’t meet with Bera, who has died or has been captured. That’s not possible. Abram is not returning Lot to a ruler who just days ago fell into a slimepit/pit of bitumen. No way.
No, Abram meets with, and proudly locks arms with, the ruler of the Sodom that is located near the Jezreel Valley [who is not Bera] in the heart of central Canaan. You see, this is when Abram introduces himself, for the first time, to the people of central Canaan, well north of the Patriarchs’ Hebron. Abram makes a very good first impression, but Abram cannot claim any part of Canaan north of Bethel yet, because Lot has not yet been divinely banished to a cave in the mountains of the Transjordan [outside of Canaan].
There are two different cities called “Sodom” in the Patriarchal narratives. One Sodom is way up north in the Orontes River Valley in Syria, which is the historical site of the league of five rebellious parties at Genesis 14: 2-4 in Year 13 [per Genesis 14: 4]; the ruler of Syria’s Sodom is Bera. The other Sodom is located near the Jezreel Valley, in the KKR/circle of the Jordan in the heart of Canaan, and that is where Melchizedek operates, along with an unnamed ruler of Canaan’s Sodom. It all makes sense, once we realize that there are two different cities, located very far from each other, both of which are referenced by the same Patriarchal nickname: “Sodom”. The early Hebrew author’s point in doing that was to warn that what historically happened last year in Syria’s “Sodom” might happen next year in Canaan’s “Sodom”. Except when Lot is briefly taken hostage and held in the Damascus region of Syria, Lot at all other times [after Lot splits from Abram, and prior to when Lot is reduced to living in a cave in the Transjordan] is living in the heart of Canaan, near the Jezreel Valley, in the KKR/circle of the Jordan. Abraham cannot claim the northern two-thirds of Canaan until Lot has been divinely banished to a cave in the mountains of the Transjordan, which is the triggering event for Abraham promptly leaving the Patriarchs’ Hebron at Genesis 20: 1.
If we could just get the underlying geography right, it all makes complete sense. Abraham needs to perfect his claim to a-l-l of Canaan: the Patriarchs’ Hebron in south-central Canaan [being the northeast corner of the Ayalon Valley, where the historical and Biblical name of the princeling ruler in Year 12 there is Milk-i-Ilu]; a-n-d the Jezreel Valley/the KKR/circle of the Jordan in central Canaan [where Melchizedek operates]; a-n-d Galilee/GRR in northern Canaan [where the historical and Biblical name of the princeling ruler in Year 13 at So-ur -- ri : cur-ri : “Tyre” : s-W-R is Abimelek].
Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois
KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
-
Isaac Fried
- Posts: 1783
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
It appears to me that ככר KIKAR is an expanded form of כר KAR, 'pillow, mound, pile, heap, hill, chunk, clump'. In Ex. 37:24 we encounter ככר זהב KIKAR ZAHAB, "a talent of gold", and in Ex. 29:23 we encounter ככר לחם KIKAR LEXEM, "loaf of bread".
In Gen. 31:34 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'pillow, saddle' (saddle = sattle, a padded cushion to sit upon). In Deut. 32:14 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'a fat lamb', while in Is. 30:23 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'hill, meadow'. In 1Ki. 5:2 we find כור KOR in the sense of 'pile, measure'.
Language can express the negative only in terms of the positive (compare הור HOR, 'mountain', and חור XOR, 'hole') and hence the act כרה KARAH, 'dig', as in Ps. 7:16(15)
בור כרה ויחפרהו
"He made a pit, and digged it"
is the formation of an inverted כר KAR, the creation of a mound of emptiness. Hence the כור KUR, 'crucible', of 1Ki. 8:51, and also the כיור KIYOR, 'sink', of Ex. 30:18, and the כיר KIYR, 'fire pit', of Lev. 11:35.
Therefore, ככר KIKAR may be a mound or may be a depression.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
In Gen. 31:34 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'pillow, saddle' (saddle = sattle, a padded cushion to sit upon). In Deut. 32:14 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'a fat lamb', while in Is. 30:23 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'hill, meadow'. In 1Ki. 5:2 we find כור KOR in the sense of 'pile, measure'.
Language can express the negative only in terms of the positive (compare הור HOR, 'mountain', and חור XOR, 'hole') and hence the act כרה KARAH, 'dig', as in Ps. 7:16(15)
בור כרה ויחפרהו
"He made a pit, and digged it"
is the formation of an inverted כר KAR, the creation of a mound of emptiness. Hence the כור KUR, 'crucible', of 1Ki. 8:51, and also the כיור KIYOR, 'sink', of Ex. 30:18, and the כיר KIYR, 'fire pit', of Lev. 11:35.
Therefore, ככר KIKAR may be a mound or may be a depression.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
-
Jim Stinehart
- Posts: 352
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:33 am
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
Isaac Fried: You wrote: “KIKAR may be a mound or may be a depression.”
1. There is no “mound” of the Jordan River. The only nearby mountains are in the Transjordan, and that is not the good land in Canaan where Lot chooses to live. Rather, the mountains of the Transjordan are where Lot is later divinely banished, when he is reduced to living in a cave.
2. The Jordan River Valley is of course a “depression”. But there’s virtually no good land in the “depression” of the Jordan River Valley proper, so that cannot be the KKR of the Jordan, which is fine land in Canaan initially claimed by Lot.
3. Rather, in context, the KKR of the Jordan, being fine land in Canaan, must be the roughly “circular” area of the greater Jezreel Valley, which borders the Jezreel Valley at Beth Shean.
4. Linguistically, KKR is usually thought to derive from KRR, which means “to move or go around in a circle”. Hence KRR means “to dance (in a circle)” at II Samuel 6: 14,16.
5. I agree with the standard view that KKR literally means “a circle”, with the following three derived, distinct meanings: (i) a round district (environs of the Jordan valley); (ii) a round loaf (of bread), or perhaps a round slice (of bread); (iii) a round weight, talent (of gold, silver, bronze, iron). You seem to semi-agree, when you write: “In Ex. 37:24 we encounter ככר זהב KIKAR ZAHAB, "a talent of gold", and in Ex. 29:23 we encounter ככר לחם KIKAR LEXEM, "loaf of bread". Note that a talent of gold is round (like a circle), but is not a mound. Likewise, a slice of bread in Biblical times was round (like a circle), but was not a mound. E.A. Speiser notes: “The Heb. noun kikkar is used for the typical flap of bread, as well as the weight known as ‘talent’. Both objects are round as well as flat.” “Genesis” (1962), pp. 96-97. Please note that an object that is “round as well as flat” is n-o-t a “mound”; but such a KKR is necessarily circle-shaped.
6. (a) You wrote: “In Gen. 31:34 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'pillow, saddle' (saddle = sattle, a padded cushion to sit upon).” The reference there in fact seems to be to a “round” saddle-bag. Rachel puts the teraphim into a round saddle-bag and sits on it.
(b) You wrote: “In Deut. 32:14 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'a fat lamb', while in Is. 30:23 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'hill, meadow'. In 1Ki. 5:2 we find כור KOR in the sense of 'pile, measure'.” But aren’t those references, rather, to (i) a “round” lamb that is well-fed, (ii) a “round” tract of land that is a meadow, and (iii) a city wall that “circles” a city?
7. To me, every one of your references makes sense in terms of being derived from “a circle” or “round”. And as I noted at the beginning of this post, the KKR of the Jordan, which is fine land in Canaan, can be neither a “mound”, because that’s the marginal hill country of the Transjordan east of the Jordan River Valley, or a “depression”, because that’s marginal land in the Jordan River Valley proper, not being fine land. Rather, in context the KKR of the Jordan must be the roughly “circular” tract of land that is the best land in all of Canaan, being the breadbasket (best wheat-growing area) of Canaan, which is adjacent to the Jordan River Valley at Beth Shan: the greater Jezreel Valley.
“Sodom” [SDM] is a play both on the Hebrew word “good fields” [sDYM] and on the Hebrew word “blasted” [sDP]. Everything makes perfect sense on all levels, once one realizes that the “Sodom” of Genesis 14: 1-14 is a generic Patriarchal nickname for a city of “good fields” way up north in Syria [that historically got “blasted” by the Hittites in Year 14, per Genesis 14: 5], whereas all other references to “Sodom” in the Patriarchal narratives are to a different “good fields” city [which Biblically gets “blasted” by YHWH], located in or near the fertile, roughly circular Jezreel Valley, adjacent to the Jordan River Valley: the KKR of the Jordan.
Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois
1. There is no “mound” of the Jordan River. The only nearby mountains are in the Transjordan, and that is not the good land in Canaan where Lot chooses to live. Rather, the mountains of the Transjordan are where Lot is later divinely banished, when he is reduced to living in a cave.
2. The Jordan River Valley is of course a “depression”. But there’s virtually no good land in the “depression” of the Jordan River Valley proper, so that cannot be the KKR of the Jordan, which is fine land in Canaan initially claimed by Lot.
3. Rather, in context, the KKR of the Jordan, being fine land in Canaan, must be the roughly “circular” area of the greater Jezreel Valley, which borders the Jezreel Valley at Beth Shean.
4. Linguistically, KKR is usually thought to derive from KRR, which means “to move or go around in a circle”. Hence KRR means “to dance (in a circle)” at II Samuel 6: 14,16.
5. I agree with the standard view that KKR literally means “a circle”, with the following three derived, distinct meanings: (i) a round district (environs of the Jordan valley); (ii) a round loaf (of bread), or perhaps a round slice (of bread); (iii) a round weight, talent (of gold, silver, bronze, iron). You seem to semi-agree, when you write: “In Ex. 37:24 we encounter ככר זהב KIKAR ZAHAB, "a talent of gold", and in Ex. 29:23 we encounter ככר לחם KIKAR LEXEM, "loaf of bread". Note that a talent of gold is round (like a circle), but is not a mound. Likewise, a slice of bread in Biblical times was round (like a circle), but was not a mound. E.A. Speiser notes: “The Heb. noun kikkar is used for the typical flap of bread, as well as the weight known as ‘talent’. Both objects are round as well as flat.” “Genesis” (1962), pp. 96-97. Please note that an object that is “round as well as flat” is n-o-t a “mound”; but such a KKR is necessarily circle-shaped.
6. (a) You wrote: “In Gen. 31:34 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'pillow, saddle' (saddle = sattle, a padded cushion to sit upon).” The reference there in fact seems to be to a “round” saddle-bag. Rachel puts the teraphim into a round saddle-bag and sits on it.
(b) You wrote: “In Deut. 32:14 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'a fat lamb', while in Is. 30:23 we encounter כר KAR in the sense of 'hill, meadow'. In 1Ki. 5:2 we find כור KOR in the sense of 'pile, measure'.” But aren’t those references, rather, to (i) a “round” lamb that is well-fed, (ii) a “round” tract of land that is a meadow, and (iii) a city wall that “circles” a city?
7. To me, every one of your references makes sense in terms of being derived from “a circle” or “round”. And as I noted at the beginning of this post, the KKR of the Jordan, which is fine land in Canaan, can be neither a “mound”, because that’s the marginal hill country of the Transjordan east of the Jordan River Valley, or a “depression”, because that’s marginal land in the Jordan River Valley proper, not being fine land. Rather, in context the KKR of the Jordan must be the roughly “circular” tract of land that is the best land in all of Canaan, being the breadbasket (best wheat-growing area) of Canaan, which is adjacent to the Jordan River Valley at Beth Shan: the greater Jezreel Valley.
“Sodom” [SDM] is a play both on the Hebrew word “good fields” [sDYM] and on the Hebrew word “blasted” [sDP]. Everything makes perfect sense on all levels, once one realizes that the “Sodom” of Genesis 14: 1-14 is a generic Patriarchal nickname for a city of “good fields” way up north in Syria [that historically got “blasted” by the Hittites in Year 14, per Genesis 14: 5], whereas all other references to “Sodom” in the Patriarchal narratives are to a different “good fields” city [which Biblically gets “blasted” by YHWH], located in or near the fertile, roughly circular Jezreel Valley, adjacent to the Jordan River Valley: the KKR of the Jordan.
Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois
-
Isaac Fried
- Posts: 1783
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
1. The root KRR כרר is not found in the Hebrew bible. In 2Sam 6:14-16 it is כרכר KARKAR = KAR-KAR. “to move or go around in a circle” is, I suspect, but a product of the imagination.
2. One place where the HB certainly refers to a, uniformly bent עגול סביב true geometrical circle (including three as the approximate ratio of circumference to diameter) is in 1Ki. 7:23
ויעש (חירם) את הים מוצק עשר באמה משפתו עד שפתו עגל סביב וחמש באמה קומתו וקו שלשים באמה יסב אתו סביב
"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."
3. The root עגל of the AGOL above is a variant of עקל 'bent, curved, arched', of which the מעוקל M-U-QAL, 'devious', of Hab. 1:4, and the עקלקל AQALQAL = AQAL-AQAL, 'roundabout, circuitous, tortuous, winding', of Judges 5:6.
4. The עגל EGEL, 'calf', of Lev.9:2, is not circular, but rather bent up, like a GAL, 'a mound'. The English 'buck' is also possibly related to 'big, bake, bucket, book, back'
Isaac Fried, Boston University
2. One place where the HB certainly refers to a, uniformly bent עגול סביב true geometrical circle (including three as the approximate ratio of circumference to diameter) is in 1Ki. 7:23
ויעש (חירם) את הים מוצק עשר באמה משפתו עד שפתו עגל סביב וחמש באמה קומתו וקו שלשים באמה יסב אתו סביב
"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."
3. The root עגל of the AGOL above is a variant of עקל 'bent, curved, arched', of which the מעוקל M-U-QAL, 'devious', of Hab. 1:4, and the עקלקל AQALQAL = AQAL-AQAL, 'roundabout, circuitous, tortuous, winding', of Judges 5:6.
4. The עגל EGEL, 'calf', of Lev.9:2, is not circular, but rather bent up, like a GAL, 'a mound'. The English 'buck' is also possibly related to 'big, bake, bucket, book, back'
Isaac Fried, Boston University
-
Jim Stinehart
- Posts: 352
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:33 am
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
Isaac Fried:
You wrote: “The root KRR כרר is not found in the Hebrew bible. In 2Sam 6:14-16 it is כרכר KARKAR = KAR-KAR. “to move or go around in a circle” is, I suspect, but a product of the imagination.”
Thank you so much for pointing out that what one sees at II Samuel 6: 14, 16 is KRKR, not KRR. But certainly KRKR is related to KKR, isn’t it? And it’s KKR that is the subject of this thread.
Here’s what Gesenius has to say: “Piel KRKR ‘to dance’ II Samuel 14, 16…. From KRKR in the first signification of ‘going round’, is derived the secondary triliteral KRK, to surround, and the noun KKR for KRKR a circle, a circuit.”
Although KRK per se is not in the Bible, consider KRKB at Exodus 27: 5. The meaning is “circuit, border, rim, that is, that which encloses in a circle”.
We’ve got KKR and KRKR and KRKB for sure in the Bible [even forgetting about the implied KRR and KRK]. All three -- KKR, KRKR, KRKB -- focus on the concept of “a circle”, don’t you agree?
Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois
You wrote: “The root KRR כרר is not found in the Hebrew bible. In 2Sam 6:14-16 it is כרכר KARKAR = KAR-KAR. “to move or go around in a circle” is, I suspect, but a product of the imagination.”
Thank you so much for pointing out that what one sees at II Samuel 6: 14, 16 is KRKR, not KRR. But certainly KRKR is related to KKR, isn’t it? And it’s KKR that is the subject of this thread.
Here’s what Gesenius has to say: “Piel KRKR ‘to dance’ II Samuel 14, 16…. From KRKR in the first signification of ‘going round’, is derived the secondary triliteral KRK, to surround, and the noun KKR for KRKR a circle, a circuit.”
Although KRK per se is not in the Bible, consider KRKB at Exodus 27: 5. The meaning is “circuit, border, rim, that is, that which encloses in a circle”.
We’ve got KKR and KRKR and KRKB for sure in the Bible [even forgetting about the implied KRR and KRK]. All three -- KKR, KRKR, KRKB -- focus on the concept of “a circle”, don’t you agree?
Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois
-
Jemoh66
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 pm
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
Isaac Mozeson's *CYCLE* entry notes:
CYCLE is from Greek kuklos (circle); the alleged Indo-European “root” is k(w)el (to revolve, move around, sojourn, dwell).
The guttural shift from גל GL to KL mathches what the AHD found to reconstruct their “root.” גל GahL is a circular mound or wave – see GALE. עגיל GHaGeeYL is a ring or earring (Numbers 31:50). עגל [A]GahL is to roll; עגל [A]GoaL means round (I Kings 7:31). עגול GHeeGOOL is a circle (IKings7:23). The Indo-European “root” for CIRCLE, sker (to turn, bend), is related to the sound of סחר $aK[H]aR (to travel around), while the meanings of Indo-European k(w)el match the GR word גור GooWR (dwell, sojourn - Genesis32:5).
Greek kirkos (a ring), Sanskrit cakram (circle), and Russian krug (circle) indicate that a double-guttural + liquid [K-K/G-L/R] is the more common axis to spin words of roundness on.
Edenic offers: גלגל GaLGahL (wheel), גלגל GiLGaiL (to roll, revolve, wander), K[H]ahG (to make a cycle: a cyclical holy day – see HAGIOGRAPHA ), חגור K[H]ahGOAR (belt), כרכור KIRKOOR (circle: to whirl), עגלה GHaGaLaH (cart, wagon), עגלגלת [A]GooLGeLeT (elliptic), and קערה Q’GHahRaH (bowl). For the vowel-Ayin with Gimel – see EGG.
More guttural-liquid curvatures at CURVE.
Branches
With a little turning, the whole family circle can fit into the Hebrew etymons above. Try words attributed to Greek kirkinos (circle) like CIRCLE, CIRCUIT, CIRCULATION, CIRCUMSTANCE, CIRCUMVENT, etc. Picadilly CIRCUS is a traffic circle. KeeKaR means the same in modern Hebrew, while in Exodus29:23 it meant a round CAKE. COKE is from an Indo-European base gel-g (rounded, ball-like).
source: http://www.edenics.net/english-word-ori ... ord=CIRCLE
Jonathan E. Mohler
CYCLE is from Greek kuklos (circle); the alleged Indo-European “root” is k(w)el (to revolve, move around, sojourn, dwell).
The guttural shift from גל GL to KL mathches what the AHD found to reconstruct their “root.” גל GahL is a circular mound or wave – see GALE. עגיל GHaGeeYL is a ring or earring (Numbers 31:50). עגל [A]GahL is to roll; עגל [A]GoaL means round (I Kings 7:31). עגול GHeeGOOL is a circle (IKings7:23). The Indo-European “root” for CIRCLE, sker (to turn, bend), is related to the sound of סחר $aK[H]aR (to travel around), while the meanings of Indo-European k(w)el match the GR word גור GooWR (dwell, sojourn - Genesis32:5).
Greek kirkos (a ring), Sanskrit cakram (circle), and Russian krug (circle) indicate that a double-guttural + liquid [K-K/G-L/R] is the more common axis to spin words of roundness on.
Edenic offers: גלגל GaLGahL (wheel), גלגל GiLGaiL (to roll, revolve, wander), K[H]ahG (to make a cycle: a cyclical holy day – see HAGIOGRAPHA ), חגור K[H]ahGOAR (belt), כרכור KIRKOOR (circle: to whirl), עגלה GHaGaLaH (cart, wagon), עגלגלת [A]GooLGeLeT (elliptic), and קערה Q’GHahRaH (bowl). For the vowel-Ayin with Gimel – see EGG.
More guttural-liquid curvatures at CURVE.
Branches
With a little turning, the whole family circle can fit into the Hebrew etymons above. Try words attributed to Greek kirkinos (circle) like CIRCLE, CIRCUIT, CIRCULATION, CIRCUMSTANCE, CIRCUMVENT, etc. Picadilly CIRCUS is a traffic circle. KeeKaR means the same in modern Hebrew, while in Exodus29:23 it meant a round CAKE. COKE is from an Indo-European base gel-g (rounded, ball-like).
source: http://www.edenics.net/english-word-ori ... ord=CIRCLE
Jonathan E. Mohler
Last edited by Jemoh66 on Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
-
Kirk Lowery
- Site Admin
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:03 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
- Contact:
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
Please remember to sign your posts with your full name. You can do this automatically by going to your control panel and including your first and last name in the "signature", as I do below. The other information is strictly optional. Only the name is required. Thank you for your cooperation with this forum policy.
-
Jemoh66
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 pm
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
Thanks for the reminder, Kirk.
Jonathan Mohler
Jonathan Mohler
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
-
Isaac Fried
- Posts: 1783
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
I have encountered this remarkable pronouncement in the Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate נדרים Ndariym, chapter 3, halacha 2:
תני רשב"ג אומר: אין מרובע מששת ימי בראשית
"there is no square from the six days of creation"
To wit: nature is round or symmetrical.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
תני רשב"ג אומר: אין מרובע מששת ימי בראשית
"there is no square from the six days of creation"
To wit: nature is round or symmetrical.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
-
Isaac Fried
- Posts: 1783
- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm
Re: KKR of the Jordan vs. Sodom
1. The root KRK is in Hebrew only by way of the word TAKRIYK תכריך 'wrap, shroud', of Esther 8:15. The word is possibly of foreign influence, and appears to be related to the German Kirche, 'church, congregation, assembly, packed group', and eventually to: circle, circus and crook.
In post-biblical usage כרך KRAK is a big city (such as Rome among the כרכי הים), an urban core surrounded by suburbs.
2. It stands to reason that KIYRKUR is jumping, hopping (hop related to heap?), springing or swinging with elation, spirited prancing, but there is no indication that it means going around.
3. I am not sure what this כרכוב of Ex. 27:5 is.
4. I think that גל GAL, 'mound' has nothing to do with "round" or "circular". And so is גיל 'happiness, gladness, joy', as in Is. 65:18, and so is גולה GOLAH, 'exile', and so is גלוי GALUIY, 'exposed, apparent, evident, manifest' as in Esther 3:14.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
In post-biblical usage כרך KRAK is a big city (such as Rome among the כרכי הים), an urban core surrounded by suburbs.
2. It stands to reason that KIYRKUR is jumping, hopping (hop related to heap?), springing or swinging with elation, spirited prancing, but there is no indication that it means going around.
3. I am not sure what this כרכוב of Ex. 27:5 is.
4. I think that גל GAL, 'mound' has nothing to do with "round" or "circular". And so is גיל 'happiness, gladness, joy', as in Is. 65:18, and so is גולה GOLAH, 'exile', and so is גלוי GALUIY, 'exposed, apparent, evident, manifest' as in Esther 3:14.
Isaac Fried, Boston University