Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

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SteveMiller
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Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by SteveMiller »

Friends,
The end of Deut 29:18 (19 in English) says לְמַעַן סְפוֹת הָרָוָה אֶת־הַצְּמֵאָה
translated by NET as "This will destroy the watered ground with the parched."

This is the only instance of this expression, and is the only usage of the verb סְפוֹת with the particle et.

Rather than translate the particle et as "with", could it be considered as the pointer to the direct object as in
Jeremiah 17:13 they have forsaken the fountain of living waters, Jehovah.
עָזְבוּ מְקוֹר מַיִם־חַיִּים אֶת־יְהוָה
which has the same structure?

Then "the parched" would be in apposition to "the watered", which doesn't make sense because the 2 are opposites.

I am thinking that for the "the parched" and "the watered" to be in apposition would mean that the watered becomes the parched.

This would lead to the following translation of the end of Deut 29:18 - to destroy the well-watered to become the parched.

This matches what happens in the following verses (21-22 Heb) [22-23 Eng]
22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath: (Deu 29:22-23 KJV)

Is this reasonable? Comments?
Thanks.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Isaac Fried
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by Isaac Fried »

The subject in these verses is an individual, so it comes as surprise that "This will destroy the watered ground with the parched." Indeed, the KJV has it as "to add drunkenness to thirst". In this, he follows the Aramaic Onkelos translation that renders it as
בְּדִיל לְאוֹסָפָא לֵיהּ חֲטָאֵי שָׁלוּתָא עַל זֵידָנוּתָא
where שלותא $ALUTA is 'the unintentional', and ZAYDANUTA is 'the intentional'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
markofcain
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by markofcain »

SteveMiller wrote: Rather than translate the particle et as "with", could it be considered as the pointer to the direct object...
The translators of the LXX also saw the אֶת־ as a direct object marker and translated one of the nouns into the nominative case (making it the subject of the verb) and one with the direct object marker into the accusative case. Not surprisingly they saw the nouns as opposites -- but surprisingly, they translated the nouns in moral terms: "lest the sinful destroy the sinless."
Mark Cain
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by Isaac Fried »

Possibly there was a folk saying לְמַעַן סְפוֹת הָרָוָה אֶת־הַצְּמֵאָה meaning to senselessly harm the good with the bad, which fits the previous כִּי בִּשְׁרִרוּת לִבִּי אֵלֵךְ

Isaac Fried, Boston University
kwrandolph
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by kwrandolph »

SteveMiller wrote:Friends,
The end of Deut 29:18 (19 in English) says לְמַעַן סְפוֹת הָרָוָה אֶת־הַצְּמֵאָה
translated by NET as "This will destroy the watered ground with the parched."

Then "the parched" would be in apposition to "the watered", which doesn't make sense because the 2 are opposites.

I am thinking that for the "the parched" and "the watered" to be in apposition would mean that the watered becomes the parched.

This would lead to the following translation of the end of Deut 29:18 - to destroy the well-watered to become the parched.

Is this reasonable? Comments?
Thanks.
Interesting question, one that deserves further thought.

First of all, let’s analyze the vocabulary.

‎ספה to deliver up, hand over (sometimes for the purpose of to add (to), dissimilar objects)
‎רוה moist, that which is moist Dt 29:18 (19)
את with, can it have the meaning of “by means of”? I seem to remember that in a few places it is so used in Tanakh, but I don’t remember off hand where. I could be wrong.
‎צמאה dryness ⇒ thirstiness Dt 29:18 (19), Jr 2:25

One thing that stands out is that רוה and צמאה are not opposites, for the former is a concrete noun, while the latter abstract.

So tentatively I see this as “dryness delivers up the moist (person, place)” in a very free translation.

Looking at the verb for “moist” we find:

‎רוה to moisten, to make moist ⇒ freshness and strength are still moist (in botany, one wants a garden that is moist, not soaking wet) “moisten” here refers to giving a drink, rain upon, work oil into skin or leather to make soft, water the ground which makes it soft and receptive to plowing and seeding, hence figuratively to moisten a person is to make a person soft as in renewing his youth, or just as moist soil is (relatively) soft and receptive to plowing and seeding, so to moisten a person is to soften him, making him receptive to one’s entreaties

Interesting question.

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by Isaac Fried »

As to the words, it seems to me that רוה RAWA is a variant of רפה RAPAH, 'soft, slack, loose, relax', while צמאה is related to עצם of which we have ECEM, '(hard) bone'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Isaac Fried
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by Isaac Fried »

In any event, הָרָוָה אֶת־הַצְּמֵאָה are possibly sheep.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
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SteveMiller
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by SteveMiller »

markofcain wrote:
SteveMiller wrote: Rather than translate the particle et as "with", could it be considered as the pointer to the direct object...
The translators of the LXX also saw the אֶת־ as a direct object marker and translated one of the nouns into the nominative case (making it the subject of the verb) and one with the direct object marker into the accusative case. Not surprisingly they saw the nouns as opposites -- but surprisingly, they translated the nouns in moral terms: "lest the sinful destroy the sinless."
Thanks Mark. I saw the LXX translation, but didn't realize that was what they did. I don't see any precedent in the Bible for abstracting "well-watered" into "sinful" or "dry" into "sinless". But the general meaning is that what this sinner does will affect the whole nation.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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SteveMiller
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by SteveMiller »

kwrandolph wrote: One thing that stands out is that רוה and צמאה are not opposites, for the former is a concrete noun, while the latter abstract.
Thanks Karl. How did you determine that one is concrete and the other abstract?
kwrandolph wrote:So tentatively I see this as “dryness delivers up the moist (person, place)” in a very free translation.
But there is an et in front of dryness.
kwrandolph wrote:Looking at the verb for “moist” we find:

‎רוה to moisten, to make moist ⇒ freshness and strength are still moist (in botany, one wants a garden that is moist, not soaking wet) “moisten” here refers to giving a drink, rain upon, work oil into skin or leather to make soft, water the ground which makes it soft and receptive to plowing and seeding, hence figuratively to moisten a person is to make a person soft as in renewing his youth, or just as moist soil is (relatively) soft and receptive to plowing and seeding, so to moisten a person is to soften him, making him receptive to one’s entreaties
Yes, the word is never negative that I see. KJV was wrong to translate it as drunkenness. There is no meaning of excess to the word.
kwrandolph wrote:Interesting question.

Karl W. Randolph.
Thanks
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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SteveMiller
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Re: Deut 29:18 (19) watered with the dry

Post by SteveMiller »

Isaac Fried wrote:The subject in these verses is an individual, so it comes as surprise that "This will destroy the watered ground with the parched."
Yes it is an individual who sins, and the point is that his sin will affect the whole nation.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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