the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

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Danielkim
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the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby Danielkim » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:40 pm

Hello. I had a chance to watch a religious forum.

there one guest speaker mentioned about the word "fish" in jonah is not consistent in regards to sex of fish.

if I remember correct, he said the word "fish" in Jonah 1:17 is female but the word "fish" in jonah 2:1 is male. I would like to know if that is correct.

and if that between 2nd masculine and 3rd feminine(???)

יְמַ֤ן יְהוָה֙ דָּ֣ג גָּדֹ֔ול לִבְלֹ֖עַ אֶת־יֹונָ֑ה וַיְהִ֤י יֹונָה֙ בִּמְעֵ֣י הַדָּ֔ג שְׁלֹשָׁ֥ה יָמִ֖ים וּשְׁלֹשָׁ֥ה לֵילֹֽות׃ (Jonah 1:17)


יִּתְפַּלֵּ֣ל יֹונָ֔ה אֶל־יְהוָ֖ה אֱלֹהָ֑יו מִמְּעֵ֖י הַדָּגָֽה׃( Jonah 2:1)

please help. thank you.

S_Walch
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby S_Walch » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:06 pm

It's actually the other way around ("fish" is male in 1:17, but female in 2:1), but no, it is correct that the fish is masculine in 1:17 (dag/דג), and then feminine in 2:1 (dagah/דגה).

Why a change of sex? Your guess is as good as mine. I'm going with scribal error.
Ste Walch

Jemoh66
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby Jemoh66 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:07 am

Maybe the hey is directional, since the prayer originates from the belly of the well but makes its way to God's ears. This same idea is in ISHAH (she comes out of ISH); Eve was taken from Adam.

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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby Kirk Lowery » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:14 am

I have moved this topic to the General Discussions forum.
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kwrandolph
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby kwrandolph » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:41 pm

Danielkim wrote:there one guest speaker mentioned about the word "fish" in jonah is not consistent in regards to sex of fish.


Not necessarily the sex of the fish, rather the gender of the noun. As mentioned earlier on another thread, the gender of some nouns can indicate meaning. Not always does the gender of the noun indicate the sex of the object.

Looking at “fish”, 19 times is it masculine, 15 times feminine, according to a concordance.

Danielkim wrote:if I remember correct, he said the word "fish" in Jonah 1:17 is female but the word "fish" in jonah 2:1 is male. I would like to know if that is correct.

יְמַ֤ן יְהוָה֙ דָּ֣ג גָּדֹ֔ול לִבְלֹ֖עַ אֶת־יֹונָ֑ה וַיְהִ֤י יֹונָה֙ בִּמְעֵ֣י הַדָּ֔ג שְׁלֹשָׁ֥ה יָמִ֖ים וּשְׁלֹשָׁ֥ה לֵילֹֽות׃ (Jonah 1:17)

יִּתְפַּלֵּ֣ל יֹונָ֔ה אֶל־יְהוָ֖ה אֱלֹהָ֑יו מִמְּעֵ֖י הַדָּגָֽה׃( Jonah 2:1)


Actually, Jonah 1:17 is masculine, 2:1 feminine.

These verses are not found among the DSS.

As for Jonah’s meaning, there are two options that I think of, I haven’t yet made a decision between them: the Heh in Jonah 2:1 indicates direction, towards, as he’s being swallowed, a second option is that Jonah considered “fish” as a generality, i.e. in the fish’s realm.

Karl W. Randolph.
Last edited by kwrandolph on Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

S_Walch
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby S_Walch » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:02 am

kwrandolph wrote:These verses are not found among the DSS.

Just a quick correction here Karl: The verses are actually found in the Manuscripts MurXII (Wadi Muraba'at Minor Prophets); 4QXIIa (although this manuscript only has the first 7 letters of 1:17); and in 8HevXIIgr (Nahal Hever Greek Minor Prophets).

Only Wadi Muraba'at has enough extant words to check this, to which even 2000 years ago, it's male in 1:17, and female in 2:1. :)
Ste Walch

kwrandolph
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby kwrandolph » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:33 am

S_Walch wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:These verses are not found among the DSS.

Just a quick correction here Karl: The verses are actually found in the Manuscripts MurXII (Wadi Muraba'at Minor Prophets); 4QXIIa (although this manuscript only has the first 7 letters of 1:17); and in 8HevXIIgr (Nahal Hever Greek Minor Prophets).

Only Wadi Muraba'at has enough extant words to check this, to which even 2000 years ago, it's male in 1:17, and female in 2:1. :)


Thanks for the correction. I had downloaded The-Biblical-Qumran-Scrolls-Eugene-Charles-Ulrich.pdf which apparently doesn’t have this, so assumed that these verses were missing.

As for the meaning, I’m presently leaning towards the understanding that the feminine of 2:1 is a generality, so that its understanding would be “in a belly among the fishes” or something along that line.

Karl W. Randolph.

Jemoh66
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby Jemoh66 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:55 pm

kwrandolph wrote:As for the meaning, I’m presently leaning towards the understanding that the feminine of 2:1 is a generality, so that its understanding would be “in a belly among the fishes” or something along that line.


This would support the idea that Jonah sees the great fish as God's answer to his prayer. The great fish is YHWH's means of salvation. That is not so much "in a belly" but "from the heart of fishdom." But if he means from the belly of the fish, then I would go back to directionality, which is supported by Gen 2.23: "לְזֹאת֙ יִקָּרֵ֣א אִשָּׁ֔ה כִּ֥י מֵאִ֖ישׁ לֻֽקֳחָה־ זֹּֽאת". Moses is basically playing on the directionality of the hey, and here the direction is not toward, but from/out of. Jonah points out that he prayed אֶל־ יְהוָ֖ה אֱלֹהָ֑יו מִמְּעֵ֖י הַדָּגָֽה, or from out of ... to. That being said, directionality and generality do not have to be mutually exclusive.

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kwrandolph
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby kwrandolph » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:43 pm

Jemoh66 wrote:…But if he means from the belly of the fish, then I would go back to directionality, which is supported by Gen 2.23: "לְזֹאת֙ יִקָּרֵ֣א אִשָּׁ֔ה כִּ֥י מֵאִ֖ישׁ לֻֽקֳחָה־ זֹּֽאת".


I always understood this verse as referring to the sex of the subject.

While I mentioned other uses of the feminine gender of nouns, the most common use appears to be indicating the sex of the subject, e.g. נער and נערה or ילד and ילדה or איש and אשה.

Just my 2¢.

Karl W. Randolph.

Jemoh66
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Re: the Big Fish was male or female in Jonah 1:17,2:1?

Postby Jemoh66 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:53 pm

kwrandolph wrote:
Jemoh66 wrote:…But if he means from the belly of the fish, then I would go back to directionality, which is supported by Gen 2.23: "לְזֹאת֙ יִקָּרֵ֣א אִשָּׁ֔ה כִּ֥י מֵאִ֖ישׁ לֻֽקֳחָה־ זֹּֽאת".


I always understood this verse as referring to the sex of the subject.

While I mentioned other uses of the feminine gender of nouns, the most common use appears to be indicating the sex of the subject, e.g. נער and נערה or ילד and ילדה or איש and אשה.

Just my 2¢.

Karl W. Randolph.


I don't think anyone questions whether Eve was female or not. But the sentence has nothing to do with her sex. Moses is simply playing on the Hebraic idea of directionality as represented by the hey; so he writes that she was called ISHAH because she was ME'ISH. The sentence would make no sense if it was about the sex of the woman. This does not mean that the -ah ending in ishah is not feminine.

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