Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

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Sebastian Walter
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:06 am

Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

I have been pondering Ps 8:3 for some time now. I know of three different interpretations:

- The standart interpretation: Ps 8:2 and 8:3 are interpreted as two different sentences; the word meanings are maintained:
From the mouths of sucklings and nursing babies you have founded strength/a bulwark on account of your adversaries.
- The "LXX-interpretation": Ps 8:2 and 8:3 are interpreted as two different sentences; עֹז is translated as "praise" (following LXX):
From the mouths of sucklings and nursing babies you have ordained praise on account of your adversaries.
- Soggin´s interpretation: One connects 8:3a to 8:2; the word meanings are maintained:
[Your glory is chanted above the heavens] by the mouths of infants and sucklings; you have founded strength, on account of your foes.
(tr.: Fokkelman)

None of this makes any sense to me. I don´t understand how one can build a bulwark from the mouths of sucklings; I don´t understand how the praise of sucklings can help God in fighting his adversaries and I don´t understand what sucklings are doing in heaven (- and even if one were to translate "by the mouths of sucklings and nursing babies" as "babbling like sucklings and nursing babies", I have no idea who this would refer to: Who is babbling like sucklings above the heavens?).

Because of this I wonder whether one could read the min as min causae and פֶּה as meaning "speech", as it often does:
Because of the wailing of sucklings and nursing babies you have founded a bulwark on account of your adversaries, so that you might put an end to enemy and avenger.
Would you think this interpretation possible?

Thanks in advance,
Sebastian Walter
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by kwrandolph »

I opened up my New Testament for my daily reading, and read Matthew 21:16. After having seen this question, I realized that I had to stop and look deeper into it. So here goes—

The first thing I did was to check the dictionary for the entry עז and found four entries: one for the meaning of refuge, one for the noun strength, one for the adjective strong, and one for the noun for goat, by extension also goat’s hair to be made into cloth or ropes. Just because there are already four homographs, doesn’t mean there isn’t room for a fifth.

I then looked up for standalone עז and found 52 verses, and a couple of other verses starting with an appended waw, of which a few seem to have the meaning of “praise” as the meaning for עז. Those include Psalm 29:1, 11, 68:34, 35 and 96:7. A few other verses may have that meaning, but the cases for them are not so clear.

I have no idea where some of the translations get “bulwark”.

So it looks as if the New Testament translation is accurate after all.

Karl W. Randolph.
Sebastian Walter
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:06 am

Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

What a coincidence! ;)

Thanks for the answer, but I think you misunderstood me (or I phrased a bit ambiguous (?) - my native language is German).

It could well be that there is a עז="praise" in Hebrew.

(In the standart dictionaries, עז="praise" isn´t certain. I find it in Ges18 for Ps 29,1; Ps 68,35; Ps 96,7; Ps 118,14; 1Chr 16,28; Is 12,2. Before Ges18, Siegmund/Stade (1893) had "jmdm Kraft belegen = ihn preisen" Ps 29,1; Ps 68,35; Ps 96,7".
I don´t find it in BDB or KBL3; not even in DCH (which, however, has "bulwark", as does König and Ges18 ;) ). Cf. also Zorell, p. 583: "In Ps 8,3 GSV, 29,1. 96,7 GS, in Is 12,2 H vertitur laus, honor, gloria (cf. ar. ´azza etiam honoratus est); at nullo loco haec idea necessaria aut aliis probabilior est."
This being said, even if there were a עז="praise", one shouldn´t choose this meaning in Ps 8:3, since יָסַד quite often has nouns referring to buildings as object, but never nouns referring to utterances.)


But עז isn´t the problem. I´m pondering on Ps 8:3 because of מִפִּי - as soon as one translates it as "from/out of the mouth of", the translation gets nonsensical; even if one were to translate עז with "praise".

"Bulwark" comes from interpreting עז as referring to the firmament, which is sometimes metaphorically circumscribed as "castle" or the like.

So again, thanks in advance,
Sebastian Walter
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by kwrandolph »

Sebastian:

Don’t worry about not being clear. All of us at one time or another are not clear, especially when dealing with a question that has more than one angle, as does this one.

The verb יסד to establish, set up, is used more than 40 times in Tanakh. About 10 times what is being established is the earth. That includes everything on the earth, including animals Psalm 89:12. God’s commands are established Psalm 119:152. Zion is established, in a context that seems to indicate that “Zion” refers to the religious center, not to its buildings Isaiah 14:32. Troops and/or herds are established Amos 9:6. Establishment of a country, in this case Egypt Exodus 9:18. Princes are set up against the Lord Psalm 2:2. Many people set up against me Psalm 31:14 speaking bad things about me. So we find at least one other example where words are established, set up.

Therefore, it is possible for praise to be set up, established from the mouths of children.

Is this all your questions, or is there still another angle that puzzles you?

Karl W. Randolph.
Sebastian Walter
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:06 am

Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

Thanks again for the answer.

But, like I said, עֹז="praise" really isn´t the problem. I accept this lexical possibility, although I consider it unlikely - generally (it is simply an unnecessary assumption) as well as specially in Ps 8:3 (there is still more evidence for עֹז meaning "bulwark" here; e.g. the fact, that Ps 8 speaks about heaven in V. 2 ("heaven"), V. 4 ("heaven", "moon", "stars"). עֹז referring to the "firmament" would fit well in this context.).

My question was whether you would consider it possible that פֶּה means "wailing" in this context.

(It stands for

- the source of wailing or pleas in Jdg 11:35.36 ("to open one´s mouth to sb."="to entreat sb."); Job 3:1 ("to open one´s mouth" = "to lament"); Ps 54:2 ("give ear to the words of my mouth"); Ps 66:17 ("I cried unto him with my mouth")

- for wailing or pleas in Ijob 7,11 ("to refrain one´s mouth"="to refrain from lamenting"))


I know that there are other possible intepretations and that these aren´t utter kibosh; e.g. your NT-interpretation, or Soggin´s interpretation, or... ; and I know the attempts to explain these interpretations.
But as soon as the translation "because of the wailing" came to my mind, it seemed to me to be the most simply explicable one. Plus: V. 3 is already parallel to V. 5 ("sucklings and nursing babies" <=> "human child"+"pogue (? - don´t know any good english equivalent. אֱנוֹשׁ is often pejorative and refers to human beings as whimps and weaklings)") => "because of the wailing God did X" would fit well in the context: "God reacts to the wailing of suckling and nursing baby" = "God watches out for whimp and weakling".

But I´m not certain about פֶּה="wailing", since פֶּה isn´t defined this way in any dictionary; hence the post.

Sebastian Walter

P.S.: I´m also quite sure that Ps 119:152 doesn´t refer to God´s causing an utterance, but to God´s passing his law. But again, if you´d like to discuss עֹז and יסד, I shall be happy to do that; but we should open another topic for this purpose. Here it seems Off-Topic to me.
kwrandolph
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Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by kwrandolph »

Sebastian:

“Wailing” is the opposite of “praise”, so how does wailing connect with praise?

Secondly the context indicates that praise comes from the mouth of children.

Karl W. Randolph.
Sebastian Walter
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:06 am

Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by Sebastian Walter »

Jeez... - is my English so bad? :shock:

It must be, for this is the third time you didn´t answer the question I tried to ask. I tried to ask: "[Assuming that עֹז means "bulwark" in Ps 8:3], would you [or anyone else] think it possible [not: "probable", or even "evident"] that פֶּה means "wailing" in this context?"
(And assuming that עֹז means "bulwark" in Ps 8:3 really isn´t that far-fetched. I compared some English and German translations; I count 20x "strength", 13x praise and 13x fortress/bulwark (I append it to this post))

(In the event that it isn´t my English: Forgive my frankness, but it really isn´t that helpful to say "It isn´t compatible with my interpretation, so no."; especially when this interpretation (1) rests on an uncertain word meaning, (2) isn´t the majority view among translators and (3) leads to a problematic translation (again, how can the praise of sucklings help God in fighting his adversaries?).)

Fear not; this is my last try. I´m not planning to surge this forum :)

Sebastian Walter

Appendix:
- strength: ASV, BB, BBE, Buber, CJB, DaBhaR, ELB, ESV, FREE, HNV, KJV+NKJV, LEB, LUT, NAS, NGÜ, TMB, WEB, Webster, Young
- praise: Darby, EÜ, Grünewalder, HfA, NCV, NIRV, NeÜ, NIV, NL, NLT, RHE, SLT, Wycliffe
- fortress/bulwark: ALB, CEB, CSB, GN, GW, MEN, Paderborner, PAT, RSV+NRS, TAF, TNIV; ZÜR
Michael Abernathy
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Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by Michael Abernathy »

I can't see wailing as a translation of פה. But if their mouths are the cause of God's action as I believe מן can be understood then it makes sense that their cries or wailing resulted in God's action.
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by kwrandolph »

Sebastian:
Sebastian Walter wrote:I tried to ask: "[Assuming that עֹז means "bulwark" in Ps 8:3],
You can’t make that assumption.

When there are homographs in Biblical Hebrew (we don’t know if they were homonyms, the vowels weren’t preserved), we have to consider each of the words as possible, and consider the context, to see which of the words best fits the context.
Sebastian Walter wrote: would you [or anyone else] think it possible [not: "probable", or even "evident"] that פֶּה means "wailing" in this context?"
Even that’s a stretch. I haven’t found one case where מפה (which is “מפי” in construct) can refer to an utterance without the context indicating what sort of utterance is meant. In this context, the only sort of utterance indicated is “praise”.
Sebastian Walter wrote: I compared some English and German translations
I don’t look at translations. I want to see the arguments from Hebrew itself.

Karl W. Randolph.
Antonio Garcia
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Re: Ps 8:3 (MT): Because of the wailing?

Post by Antonio Garcia »

When it comes on the Psalms, you must cite the ketiv, as a basis of further argument.

An open question is the structure of the first qere, which can be cause for various proposals to read what is not written.

In my opinion the reading of second qere is defined as the retrograde of the first qere.

Another unresolved question is the composition of the psalm. My suggestion is reading first the ketiv, after the first qere and then the second, on each text line, although the voices are spoken by different actors.

The last problem is the Masoretic vocalization of texts. I think that for the ketiv we could accept the current vocalization, but you must define "ex novo", the vocalization of those two qeres.

  After this easy exercise you can talk about the meaning of each word, in cantillation of psalm 8,3.
Image
Antonio Garcia Hurtado
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