Deuteronomy 32:8-9 alternative readings

[kwrandolph]

Are we actually agreeing on something?

If we both do careful work, we can’t help by agree at least some of the time.

Anyways, most of the time that we disagree, it is based on interpretation, not grammar.

Your translation sounds a lot like what I said because I don't think it says the "because the portion of the L-rd is His people", but "because the L-rd divided His people." Just the beginning is a little different because I didn't want to use the hophal as an infinitive because I read that you are not supposed to. It sounds like you don't think it can mean "to divide", but "to apportion."

Kenneth Greifer

The word is used more than 50 times. In apportioning, there is a certain amount of dividing in order to apportion, but the emphasis is on the apportioning, not the division.

Divided makes no sense, God did not divide His people, the idea that the 12 tribes is what is referred to here is highly unlikely especially since Moses would have had no idea at that time that the tribes would be allotted different parts of Canaan.

The tribes were divided before Moses appeared on the scene, and two and a half tribes got their allotted land before Moses died. Further, some of the laws dealt with tribal inheritance and keeping the land within the tribal allotments. Moses knew.

However, my main objection is that the term חלק doesn’t mean to divide, rather to apportion.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Jemoh66]

The word is used more than 50 times. In apportioning, there is a certain amount of dividing in order to apportion, but the emphasis is on the apportioning, not the division.

I agree. In fact this is how I understand the word "divide." You divide something out to someone. Many languages have one word for these related meanings: divide, share, apportion. In fact in English we still say to "divvy out."

I have recently come across an interpretation according to the alternative "sons of Elohim." God gave dominion to Satan so that he is the Prince of the Power of the Air. Satan in turn allows demonic beings to rule over certain areas within certain boundaries. These are the "rulers and authorities in high places," or the "sons of God." So the nations are apportioned to these rulers, while God takes Israel as his portion. I believe this is quite consistent with the whole of scripture. The Prince of Persia then had Persia as his portion. This is why the prophet says, "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our LORD and of his Messiah." Through Messiah, I a Gentile have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. Though I was apportioned to a spiritual authority in high places, because Yeshua is seated high above all principalities and rulers, I am now Messiah's portion.

[Kenneth Greifer]

DEUTERONOMY 32:8-9

The Dead Sea scrolls’ version of these quotes says the borders of peoples were set according to the number of the sons of G-d or gods, but the Masoretic version says according to the number of the sons of Israel.

DEUTERONOMY 32:8-9
MASORETIC TEXT
USUAL TRANSLATION

"When the Most High (G-d) gave nations inheritances (hiphal infinitive), when He divided the sons of mankind (or a man) (adam), He set borders of peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel, because the portion (noun) of the L-rd is His people, Jacob is the lot (the portion) of His inheritance."

DEUTERONOMY 32:8-9
MASORETIC TEXT
ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATIONS

"When the Most High (G-d) gave nations inheritances (hiphil infinitive), when He divided the sons of mankind (or a man) (adam), He set borders of peoples to (for) the number of the sons of Israel, because the L-rd divided (verb) His people, Jacob, the lot (the portion) of His inheritance."

Or: "When the most high of nations (Israel) will give inheritances (will cause to inherit) (hiphil verb), when He (he) (G-d or Israel) will divide the sons of mankind (or a man), He (he) (G-d or Israel) will be caused to set up borders of peoples to (for) the number of the sons of Israel, because the L-rd divided (verb) His people, Jacob, the portion of His inheritance."

Or: "When the most high of nations (Israel) was inherited (will be inherited) (niphal infinitive), when He (he) (G-d or Israel) will divide the sons of mankind (or a man) (adam), He (he) (G-d or Israel) will be caused to set up borders of peoples to (for) the number of the sons of Israel, because the L-rd divided (verb) His people, Jacob, the portion of His inheritance."

The quote sounds like G-d set the number of the borders of all of the peoples on earth to match the number of the sons of Israel, but I think the quote is only referring to the borders of the children of Israel. G-d divided the sons of Israel, who was also called Jacob, into twelve tribes that had their own territories. The tribes were called "peoples" in GENESIS 28:3 and GENESIS 48:4 which say that Jacob will become an “assembly of peoples.”
The word "adam" can mean "a man" or "mankind". Some examples where it is used for a single man are LEVITICUS 1:2, NUMBERS 19:14, NEHEMIAH 2:10, ZECHARIAH 13:5, and ECCLESIASTES 11:8.

Instead of saying "because the portion of the L-rd is His people", maybe it says "because the L-rd divided His people." Doesn't it make more sense this way?

Israel is called the most high of nations in DEUTERONOMY 26:19 and in DEUTERONOMY 28:1. Instead of saying "the Most High" referring to G-d, it could say "the most high of nations" referring to Israel.

Kenneth Greifer

When I said the Most High caused nations to inherit, I meant the actual nations were also given territories. I did not mean that Israel was being called "the nations". I think Israel is called the "peoples" because they were divided into separate tribes. I tried to explain these ideas to someone who thought it didn't make sense because Israel was not called "nations" at that time, only later when they became Judah and Israel. At that time, they could have been called "peoples" because of the tribes.

Kenneth Greifer

[kwrandolph]

…
When I said the Most High caused nations to inherit, I meant the actual nations were also given territories. I did not mean that Israel was being called "the nations". I think Israel is called the "peoples" because they were divided into separate tribes. I tried to explain these ideas to someone who thought it didn't make sense because Israel was not called "nations" at that time, only later when they became Judah and Israel. At that time, they could have been called "peoples" because of the tribes.

Kenneth Greifer

Deuteronomy 32:8
בהנחל עליון גוים  בהפרידו בני אדם  יצב גבלת עמים  למספר בני ישראל

40 years earlier at Mount Sinai, Exodus 19:6
ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש  אלה הדברים אשר תדבר אל בני ישראל

Looking at the words in question:

‎גוי nation, a political entity (note: though often used in the plural to denote non-Israelis, it is used for Abraham’s descendants Gn 12:3, the people of Israel Ex 19:6, 33:13 and Judah Jr 7:28) σ עם

‎עם people, a recognized group of individuals

The two are not the same, as a recognized group of individuals can be a subset of a nation, superior to a nation (the people can be split into two or more political units) or even scattered among the nations.

Just some food for thought.

Karl W. Randolph.

[SteveMiller]

I have recently come across an interpretation according to the alternative "sons of Elohim." God gave dominion to Satan so that he is the Prince of the Power of the Air. Satan in turn allows demonic beings to rule over certain areas within certain boundaries. These are the "rulers and authorities in high places," or the "sons of God." So the nations are apportioned to these rulers, while God takes Israel as his portion. I believe this is quite consistent with the whole of scripture. The Prince of Persia then had Persia as his portion..

But it says "according to the number of the sons of God". The "sons of God" would include the both good and bad angels, but today, it seems, all the nations have a bad angel over them except Israel. There are many more angels than there are nations.

"sons of God", which is in LXX as well as DSS, may refer to the believers in the Messiah to come, believers that will come out of all nations.

This is why the prophet says, "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our LORD and of his Messiah." Through Messiah, I a Gentile have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. Though I was apportioned to a spiritual authority in high places, because Yeshua is seated high above all principalities and rulers, I am now Messiah's portion.

Praise be to God.

[SteveMiller]

Divided makes no sense, God did not divide His people, the idea that the 12 tribes is what is referred to here is highly unlikely especially since Moses would have had no idea at that time that the tribes would be allotted different parts of Canaan.

The tribes were divided before Moses appeared on the scene, and two and a half tribes got their allotted land before Moses died. Further, some of the laws dealt with tribal inheritance and keeping the land within the tribal allotments. Moses knew.

Not only that, but Moses' blessing of the 12 tribes in Deu 33:6-25 is mainly concerning the portions of land they will receive. The 1st 3 blessings on Reuben, Judah and Levi are not related to the land, but the remaining 9 are about their portion of the land.