Psalm 97:7-9 different translation

[Kenneth Greifer]

Jonathan,

I think my translation is wrong because I misunderstood the meaning of some words, but partially I think I was right. I don't plan to post my other possible translations because I want to think about them more.

I think the current translation that says gods should bow to G-d is also wrong if you don't believe in the existence of other gods. Elijah was mocking the prophets of Baal. He did not believe Baal existed. Psalm 97:7 does not sound like mocking gods that don't exist. It could be the writer believed in them or the quote is misunderstood. I have some other translations, but I don't want to discuss them right now, so I will leave it at that. Thank you for answering me, though. Not everyone is willing to discuss ideas that they disagree with.

Kenneth Greifer

[Kenneth Greifer]

Ste Walch,

I think I understand your idea. I think you are saying that the servants of an image (idol worshipers) will say that their gods will bow to G-d. It is unusual and doesn't make perfect sense to me, if I understand what you are saying.

Kenneth Greifer

[S_Walch]

I think I understand your idea. I think you are saying that the servants of an image (idol worshipers) will say that their gods will bow to G-d. It is unusual and doesn't make perfect sense to me, if I understand what you are saying.

Ah no, it appears that my translation hasn't been understood. To me the statement "all 'gods' shall bow to him" is not on the lips of the idol worshippers, but the Psalmist stating why the idol worshippers should be "ashamed" - all their 'gods' (which one may argue are to be considered nothing but demons) will bow down to "Him", that is, Yahweh.

If the statement "all gods shall bow to him" would be understood as being said by the idol worshippers, I'd expect something along the lines of "those who give praise concerning idols, saying 'all gods shall bow to it' ".

Hopefully what I was getting at is now understandable

[Kenneth Greifer]

I have several new ideas about Psalm 97, but I am going to put one of them here.

Maybe it says "Let be ashamed all servants of an idol who are boasting among the idols all gods have bowed to it (to their idol)."
I think the psalm writer is saying that they are bragging that their god is the highest god, but really they are bragging that their idol is the top idol. Maybe that is why he calls them idols and not gods because they are not alive.

Kenneth Greifer

[kwrandolph]

I have several new ideas about Psalm 97, but I am going to put one of them here.

Maybe it says "Let be ashamed all servants of an idol who are boasting among the idols all gods have bowed to it (to their idol)."
I think the psalm writer is saying that they are bragging that their god is the highest god, but really they are bragging that their idol is the top idol. Maybe that is why he calls them idols and not gods because they are not alive.

Kenneth Greifer

Kenneth:

You are trying too hard. Just read it in context. In context, wherever you find “he” or “him” in this section, it refers to YHWH.

As far as the word “gods” is concerned, it’s used the same way as in English. It’s used to designate anything that is called a “god” even though we know they are not gods.

An example is that I’m descended from a “god”, Odin. Was he a real god? Nah! But in the pagan society in which he lived, the people were ancestor worshippers. So his descendants worshipped him as a god, even though he was just a man who died, was buried, and the site of his grave has been lost. Further, like the Roman emperors and Egyptian pharaohs, as the leader of his people, he insisted on being worshipped as a god while he was still alive, but he still was just a man, not a god. Yet at times I refer to him as a “god”. Is it because I think he was a god? Not at all! All I’m doing when I refer to him as a “god” is following linguistic convention.

Likewise, when the ancient Hebrews referred to the idols as “gods”, all they did was to follow linguistic tradition that acknowledged that they were called “gods” even though they recognized that they were not gods.

Don’t try too hard. Read in context, and most of these questions are answered, even before you ask them.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Karl,

In the usual translation, it says "bow to Him (to G-d) all gods." I understand that non-existent gods were also called gods. Anything people worshiped were called gods. In this quote, it sounds like the writer is saying that they do exist. It is an unusual psalm, but it might be mistranslated too.

I am not trying too hard. I am considering the unimaginable possibility that the psalm has been misunderstood by the wonderful perfect people of the past who cannot be wrong according to a lot of people. It could be that the psalm is misunderstood. Or is that impossible for some reason? I get the feeling that some people can't be right and some people can't be wrong when it comes to the Bible. I am talking about the people of the past who decided what every quote of the Bible says and almost everyone else has decided to follow.

Actually, I think it might say: Let be ashamed all servants of an idol who are boasting in idols (nonexistent gods): all gods have bowed to it (to their idol or god).
Or : Let be ashamed all servants of an idol who are boasting against idols: bow to it all gods.
Or: Let be ashamed all servants of an idol who are boasting among idols, all gods have bowed to it.

In these possible translations, the idols are nonexistent gods which makes sense too.

Kenneth Greifer

[kwrandolph]

Kenneth:

This discussion is now going in circles, and nowhere. As a result, I don’t plan to answer again.

The false “gods” do exist, even if only as figments of their worshippers’ imaginations. Hence the linguistic convention of calling them “gods”. Even those figments of imagination will “bow down” to YHWH metaphorically if not physically.

I brought up the example of my ancestor to show that many of the gods were ancestors. Jupiter the top god of the Romans was a son of Noah, the Greeks called him Yapate. The Amelekites worshipped their ancestor whom they called Seti when they ruled Egypt and was worshipped as such in Egypt. In the afterlife, all these “gods” bow down to YHWH.

One last time, don’t take verse seven out of context. The subject of verses 5–9 is YHWH. יבשו כל-עבדי פסל— המתהללים באלילים is an aside, then returns to the main subject in השתחוו-לו כל-אלהים.

This is not an unusual psalm.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Karl,

You don't have to answer me, but you can't know if the writer of the psalm metaphorically said idols should bow to G-d. That's your opinion just like I have opinions. Opinions are not facts, so both of us are just guessing what the psalm writer meant. I am just giving alternative translations that I think can make sense. None of us can know for sure what the true answer is.

Kenneth Greifer

[SteveMiller]

Hi Kenneth,
I agree with you that when David, the author, says, Let all gods worship Him, David means that they exist. They do.
elohim can refer to angels, which is the meaning here.
elohim also refers to angels in Ps 8:5 & 138:1, which were also written by David.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Steve,

I don't think angels were called "elohim."

Kenneth Greifer