Job 21:8-9

[Kenneth Greifer]

Karl,

Since you brought up Job 21:8-9 in the other topic, I thought I'd show an alternative translation here. Maybe it says: Their seed is established before them (the wicked). Their people and their offspring are to their eyes. Their houses (their households) are a reward (a payment) from fear but (and) not the rod of G-d against them.

They get rewarded instead of punished for causing fear. Job 20:19 mentions the wicked taking a house by force from a poor person, so Job must be answering that they don't get punished for it.

So, why am I wrong this time?

Kenneth Greifer

[kwrandolph]

Karl,

Since you brought up Job 21:5 in the other topic, I thought I'd show an alternative translation here. Maybe it says: Their seed is established before them (the wicked). Their people and their offspring are to their eyes. Their houses (their households) are a reward (a payment) from fear and not the rod of G-d against them.

They get rewarded instead of punished for causing fear.

So, why am I wrong this time?

Kenneth Greifer

Job 21:5 is as follows:

 פנו-אלי והשמו    ושימו יד על-פה

How do you get your translation out of that?

Karl W. Randolph.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Karl,

I guess I read it wrong. I fixed it to Job 21:8-9. I fixed the original posting and I added a little to it about Job 20:19 being about a wicked man taking a house by force from a poor person. That could explain part of my alternative translation.

Kenneth Greifer

[Kenneth Greifer]

I just thought of a slightly different translation of Job 21:8-9 where Job could be responding to Job 20, especially Job 20:19, if Job 21:9 means "their houses" and not "their households."

Their seed is established.
Before them are their people and their offspring.
To their eyes, their houses (their households) are a reward (a payment) from fear but (and) not the rod of G-d against them.

Maybe it means that the wicked feel that their evil is not punished by G-d, but they get big families, etc.

Or maybe it says "their seed is established before them. With them and their offspring, to their eyes, their houses (their households) are a reward (a payment) from fear but (and) not the rod of G-d against them."

Kenneth Greifer

[kwrandolph]

Karl,

Since you brought up Job 21:8-9 in the other topic, I thought I'd show an alternative translation here. Maybe it says: Their seed is established before them (the wicked). Their people and their offspring are to their eyes. Their houses (their households) are a reward (a payment) from fear but (and) not the rod of G-d against them.

They get rewarded instead of punished for causing fear. Job 20:19 mentions the wicked taking a house by force from a poor person, so Job must be answering that they don't get punished for it.

So, why am I wrong this time?

Kenneth Greifer

You need to take the whole book into context:

God has allowed bad things to happen to Job. Then his three “friends” come to comfort Job, but the “comfort” that they bring is to accuse Job of being an evildoer. Some comfort!

In this particular passage, Job correctly points out that evildoers don’t necessarily suffer bad things in this life, contrary to his “friends’” claims. They sometimes thrive while good people suffer. This particular passage is talking about how evildoers thrive.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Karl,

I was hoping you would comment on my translation since it is different than the usual translation.

Kenneth Greifer

[Kenneth Greifer]

Maybe it says "their houses are their (ם) quietness (their prosperity) (their security?) (שלו) from fear and (but) not the rod of G-d against them."
Job 20:19 says they took houses by force and Job 20:20 mentions "quietness" (the same Hebrew word). Psalm 30:6 or 7 also mentions this word.

Kenneth Greifer

[Kenneth Greifer]

I think I have an even better explanation that just hit me. Job 21:8-9 could say "The wealth (the strength?) of their seed is established before them. Their people and their offspring is to their eyes. Their houses are a payment (a reward) from fear, but (and) not the rod of G-d against them."

Maybe it means the wealth (strength) of their seed is established before them (the wicked people) and they see their people and their offspring who they rule over and oppress. Job 20:19 said they take the houses of poor people by force. Job 21:8-9 could say they get the houses as a payment from fear, but they don't get the payment of punishment from G-d.

I am not sure if "their people" refers to their own seed or the poor people.

Maybe the word "wealth" or "strenght" from the end of Job 21:7 is at the beginning of Job 21:8.

Or it could say "their seed is established before them..." without saying "the wealth (strength) of their seed", but still be about the other people.

Kenneth Greifer

[Kenneth Greifer]

Job 21:7 might say something else too:

Why will wicked people live becoming old (infinitive) עתק and ו also why will they become strong? (or why were were they strong?) גברו

Or: Why will wicked people live becoming old (infinitive) and also why being strong (infinitive)?

Maybe the vav at the end of the verb "to be strong" should be at the front of the next word. Could it say "and also why being strong (infinitive) גבר?

Kenneth Greifer

[Kenneth Greifer]

I think I am overdoing my explanation of Job 21:8-9. I think it is simpler.

"Their houses are a reward (a payment) (a payback?) from fear, but not the rod of G-d against them."

Maybe it doesn't mean that G-d won't punish them, but simply that the rod of G-d against them is not a payment (a payback) from fear because G-d is not afraid of them like the people in Job 20:19 who lose their houses to the wicked people.

Kenneth Greifer