לעות

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kwrandolph
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

לעות

Post by kwrandolph »

I found this particular spelling in only three verses: Isaiah 50:4, Amos 8:5, Lamentations 3:36.

From the form, I first took it as an infinitive with a prefixed ל from the following:

‎עוה to pervert (⇐ to twist, distort)

or

‎עות to distort, misrepresent (⇐ distort message about) Am 8:5, Ps 119:78, 146:9, Ko 1:15, La 3:36

But when looking at the three examples above, the meanings listed here don’t seem to fit the contexts. Rather these contexts seem to have more of a meaning of strengthening, enforcing. As such, the ל is part of the root, not a prefix.

Any clues from cognate languages?

Any thoughts?

Karl W. Randolph.
S_Walch
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Re: לעות

Post by S_Walch »

From BDB on its appearance in Isaiah 50:4:

עוּת S5790 TWOT1592 GK6431 vb. very dub.; only in לָדַעַת לָעוּת אֶת־יָעֵף דָּבָר Is 50:4 usually to help, so Ges Del Di RyKau; al., but in that case an Aramaism (Aramaic עות = Arabic غاث (ğʾṯ), q.v. sub עוּשׁ[/heb]); text prob. corrupt, LXX Oort Times 1891, 469 לְעִתּוֹ, and del. אֶת־יָעֵף; Klo Che לִרְעוֹת ‘teach, edify,’ Gr לַעֲנוֹת, Che לְהַחֲיוֹת.

Checking the LXX translation of those verses, in Isaiah 50:4 it is ἡνίκα meaning at the time when; Amos 8:5 has ποιῆσαι meaning to make; and Lam has καταδικάσαι meaning to condemn. This would indicate the LXX translators were attempting to make a translation based on context in these verses.

All three, however, do come under some sort of "to enforce, strengthen", though possibly "to encourage, to assist", as in Isa 50:4, "to encourage/assist the weary"; Amos 8:5 "to encourage/assist scales of deceit"; Lam 3:36 obviously doesn't quite fit my proposal, unless it can be in a sense of "to falsely encourage/assist so as to subvert", though this would fit the usual definition of עות.

Could possibly just have Amos 8:5 and Isa 50:4 as different roots rather than having Lam 3:36 along with it.

HALOT doesn't give much to go on:
עות: MHeb. pi. JArm. pa. to bend, stoop; ? Syr. (P. Smith Thes. 3008) ʿtt to deceive; ? or secondary form < עוה pi.
[qal: inf: לָעוּת Is 504: ? prp. לְעַוֹּת, לְעַוֵּת, לַעֲנֹת, לִרְעוֹת; see Reiterer Gerechtigkeit als Heil (Graz 1976):49.]
cj. nif. Pr 276 for נַעְתָּרוֹת prp. נְעוֹתוֹת crooked, deceptive. †
pi. (Jenni 244): pf. עִוְּתוֹ, עִוְּתָֽנִי, עִוְּתוּנִי; impf. יְעַוֵּת/וֶת־; inf. עַוֵּת: —1. to bend: the deeds of God Qoh 713 (:: תִּקֵּן), מִשְׁפָּט Jb 83 3412, דֶּרֶךְ Ps 1469; מֹאזְנַיִם Am 85: to falsify (by changing the stone weights, or bending the beam of the balance, see Maag 182f; Wolff BK 14/2:376); —2. with acc. of pers., to bend Jb 196 (subj. God); to suppress (in litigation) Lam 336, to lead astray Ps 11978. †
pu: pt. מְעֻוָּת: crooked Qoh 115 (:: תקן cj. הִתָּקֵן). †
hitp: pf. הִתְעַוְּתוּ: to be stooped Qoh 123. †
Der. *עַוָּתָה
Ste Walch
kwrandolph
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Re: לעות

Post by kwrandolph »

Thanks for quoting the dictionaries and LXX.
S_Walch wrote:Checking the LXX translation of those verses, in Isaiah 50:4 it is ἡνίκα meaning at the time when; Amos 8:5 has ποιῆσαι meaning to make; and Lam has καταδικάσαι meaning to condemn. This would indicate the LXX translators were attempting to make a translation based on context in these verses.
That’s how lexicographers recognize the definitions of words.
S_Walch wrote:All three, however, do come under some sort of "to enforce, strengthen", though possibly "to encourage, to assist", as in Isa 50:4, "to encourage/assist the weary"; Amos 8:5 "to encourage/assist scales of deceit"; Lam 3:36 obviously doesn't quite fit my proposal….
That’s why I questioned the possibility of a previously unrecognized root in my first message.

The more I read Bible, the more I realize that Biblical Hebrew isn’t as well understood as we want to claim we know it. That’s why these questions come up.
S_Walch wrote:Could possibly just have Amos 8:5 and Isa 50:4 as different roots rather than having Lam 3:36 along with it.
I’m open to that possibility. Is there any evidence from cognate languages as well?

Karl W. Randolph.
S_Walch
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Re: לעות

Post by S_Walch »

Unfortunately, the HALOT quote is all I've got with regards to the evidence from cognate languages.

Don't seem to have much help elsewhere either.

Re-reading your post and mine above, I would think my proposal fits the best - Isa 50:4 and Amos 8:5 use a different root compared to Lam 3:36, with עות meaning "to encourage, to strengthen, to enforce" in these two, and only two, places.
Ste Walch
kwrandolph
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Re: לעות

Post by kwrandolph »

To post an update on this question:

The form לעות can be the infinitive from either עוה or עות. After more research, I have to agree with Ste Walch that Lamentations 3:36 is probably from the root עוה and not עות. Lisowski in his concordance disagrees with us.

One of the things that makes it more difficult for us today is that the final ה in עוה (as well as other Heh final verbs) is often changed to a ת in various grammatical constructions.

Where the verb עות seems to be found is in only six verses: Isaiah 50:4, Amos 8:5, Psalm 119:78, 146:9, Job 8:3, 34:12. That is, after eliminating the examples where עוה conjugates to עות and the context seems to indicate that conjugation.

Of those six verses, five of them appear that they can have the meaning of “to present, set before” or something similar, the exception being Job 34:12. But even that one exception, could it be connected in the same way that בצע “cut” can be read both positively as in “share of the profits” but more often negatively as “cut of stolen loot”? So sometimes עות can be taken as to mean “to misrepresent”?

What do you all think?

Karl W. Randolph.
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: לעות

Post by kwrandolph »

aavichai wrote:there is a possibility which is very reasonable
the ל is part of the root - the verb is absolute
I’ve considered that. If so, then the way a dictionary would list it would be as לעה and I know of no Biblical Hebrew dictionary that recognizes such a root.

Three times לעו is found (Obediah 16, Proverbs 20:25 and Job 6:3). That form can be derived from a dictionary listing of לוע, לעה or לעע so we could be talking about more than one root here.

Proverbs 20:25 and Job 6:3 use the verb in the context of belittling, treating as nothing.

There’s the derivative לע used as belittling, not valuing Numbers 4:20.

Obediah 16 seems to indicate a meaning of gulping down, swallowing. There are two derivatives that seem to back up that use:

Proverbs 23:2 לע indicating throat
Psalms 21:10 לעת indicating a consuming, swallowing fire.

All three possible roots are in play for these derivatives.
aavichai wrote:and the verse is like the style of ולא ידעו עשות נכוחה (Amos)
the עשות after the י-ד-ע is like the לעות
but if so, then the ל of לעות should get Shva instead of Kamats
Those vowel points are from a millennium after Biblical Hebrew ceased being a natively spoken language, so they reflect what the Masoretes thought, not necessarily what Biblical Hebrew was like. That’s why I never refer to the Masoretic points in these discussions, nor do I join in other threads that discuss them.
aavichai wrote:and that root ל-ע-ה is also in arabic as language or talk
Wouldn’t that indicate a third root connected with לע?
aavichai wrote:that is fit to the word לשון in the beginning of the verse

God gave me tounge to know to talk with a weary man (or gave me tounge for the purpose of speaking and preaching the weary)
that seem nice to me
What about the verses I mentioned in my last message that seem to indicate a root of עות for this and the use in Amos?

Karl W. Randolph.
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: לעות

Post by kwrandolph »

Avichai:
aavichai wrote:Hi Karl

As for the לעות in Amos,
i'm not saying that i agree immidietly but what you say is very interesting
(i'm talking when you see לעות as present or set before)
is there any close root in other semitic language that will support that?
I don’t know any cognate languages (except just enough Aramaic to struggle through the Aramaic portions of Daniel and Ezra). I can’t answer your question.

There is both a advantage, as well as an disadvantage, for not knowing cognate languages. The disadvantage is that I can’t make comparisons with other languages, nor use them as resources for Biblical Hebrew. The advantage is that my mind isn’t polluted by concepts found in those other languages but are not found in Biblical Hebrew. By knowing Biblical Hebrew alone, I can have a better feel for the language than one who has to keep sorting through the languages, is he dealing with the correct language?
aavichai wrote:maybe you see it too much literally
The more Biblical Hebrew language I know, the more apt I am to take the text literally.

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
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Re: לעות

Post by Isaac Fried »

עוּת seems to be here a variant of עוּץ

Isaac Fried
Boston University
Isaac Fried
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Re: לעות

Post by Isaac Fried »

I should add that עָוָה AWAH is evidently a variant of עבה, 'inflate, thicken', and hence 'bend, distort, deviate from the straight and the level'.

Isaac Fried
Boston University
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