Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

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kwrandolph
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Re: Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

Post by kwrandolph »

PakoBckuu wrote:One reason I don't agree that the Tanakh lacked the concept of mystical inner meanings is because of the issue of dreams. You wrote:
In the examples of both Joseph and Daniel, the dreams involved were specifically sent by God to give a message, and the interpretations were specifically given to Joseph and Daniel (in the case of Daniel 2, the description of the dream too). In these cases, the events were supernatural, not mystical.
First of all, the dreams of pharaoh's servants were not explicitly said to be given by God.
The Bible gives true truth, but not exhaustive truth. The context is that the dreams were true predictions, the interpretations given to Joseph from God, indicating that the dreams were given by God without having to make an explicit statement to that effect.
PakoBckuu wrote:On another note, I liked how you gave the Two examples from Torah as referring to Messiah directly. It's an interesting issue.
Genesis 3 says God puts enmity between "the woman's" "seed" (maybe a virgin birth?) and the snake's "seed", and the snake's seed bites the woman's seed's heel. First you would have to prove that a woman's seed could never refer to a woman bearing a child naturally in the Tanakh. Then you would need to show that no other child could be born from a virgin besides Messiah. Otherwise, the link is not clear in the text and can only be read tentatively, circumstantially, or indirectly.
We don’t know how much God told people then. We know, for example, that Noah took seven pairs of the clean animals into the ark, but nowhere in the surviving antediluvian literature does it say when and where God told people which were the clean and unclean animals. Much history has been lost.
PakoBckuu wrote:In any case, the New Testament for one has plenty of usages of this style of literature with inner meanings. A good example is Jesus' parables. The images in them referred often to something else symbolically.
Aesop’s fables are parables. We’re not talking about hidden meanings, rather the type of literature tells us what to expect.
PakoBckuu wrote:You also mentioned the part in Matthew "He shall be called a Nazarene". The thing is, it nowhere says in the Tanakh actually that Messiah would be called a Nazarene. It's said about someone else, and Matthew therefore must be taking it as having an inner mystical reference to Jesus in that Tanakh verse.
Jesus was understood as being from Nazaret. Look at the meaning of “Nazaret” so that being known as from Nazaret gave also the pun as being a consecrated one. Messiah was recognized as being one who is consecrated.
Since when is Wikipedia a trustworthy source?
PakoBckuu wrote:Another example is when David says:
Psalm 69:21
Instead, they gave me gall for my food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink
Is that an explicit prediction by David that Messiah will get to drink actual vinegar?
The connection would be that David describes himself that way, and then other verses use David as a prophecy of Messiah in the Tanakh, like Isaiah 55, and so by extension this applies to Messiah.
How does Isaiah 55 fit in here?
PakoBckuu wrote:Compare with
John 19:28
After this, knowing that everything had now been accomplished, and to fulfill the Scripture, Jesus said, "I am thirsty."
whereupon he was given vinegar to drink.

If Psalm 69 and some other Davidic verses about David are spoken of Messiah directly, then this still could require an added step of linkage (that Isaiah 55 provides).
Some of the psalms of David clearly were not talking about David himself. Since it’s recognized that David was also a prophet, i.e. telling about future events, the understanding is that those things which David wrote not about himself referred to someone else. It’s understood that that someone else is Messiah. And it was God who gave David the messages.

So far you have failed to make the case for a mystical reading of the text.

One problem I have with mysticism and mystical readings is that they make it much harder to analyze and understand the language. Almost anything goes with mysticism. Proper understanding of the language takes into account literary styles, puns and figures of speech. But mysticism is too subjective, casting aside the anchors of demonstrable analysis. I know of no place where such mystical readings are necessary, or even make sense.

In closing, I’ll stick to what can be demonstrated.

Just my 2¢.

Karl W. Randolph.
PakoBckuu
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:51 am

Re: Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

Post by PakoBckuu »

David Cole says in his book Understanding God's Message:
"Starting with the first Hebrew letter in Genesis and Exodus, and sequencing to each 49th letter, you find the four letter Hebrew word TORH, the Hebrew spelling of the name of the five books. .... Apply the 49 letter equidistant procedure to the Leviticus and the ineffable name of God appears, YHVH."
He adds that
"Doing the same in Numbers and Deuteronomy, we find the reverse, HROT.... Therefore, the first two books point to the center at the right.... with God's ancient Hebrew name at the nexus....

TORH=>YHVH<=HROT
Do you think he is correct?
Hal Smith
S_Walch
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:41 pm

Re: Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

Post by S_Walch »

PakoBckuu wrote:David Cole says in his book Understanding God's Message:
"Starting with the first Hebrew letter in Genesis and Exodus, and sequencing to each 49th letter, you find the four letter Hebrew word TORH, the Hebrew spelling of the name of the five books. .... Apply the 49 letter equidistant procedure to the Leviticus and the ineffable name of God appears, YHVH."
Seeing as though the first letter of Genesis is ב/Beth, and the 49th letter is ל/lamed, then no, he is not correct with his very first sentence.

Also doesn't apply to Leviticus, as the first letter is ו/Vav, not a י/Yod.

He is effectively talking out of his rear-end.
Ste Walch
PakoBckuu
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:51 am

Re: Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

Post by PakoBckuu »

S_Walch wrote: Seeing as though the first letter of Genesis is ב/Beth, and the 49th letter is ל/lamed, then no, he is not correct with his very first sentence.

Also doesn't apply to Leviticus, as the first letter is ו/Vav, not a י/Yod.
You are right. He mixed it up by saying to start with the first letter (B) because he learned the story through the grapevine.
Wikipedia gives a different version of the claim:
One cited example is that by taking every 50th letter of the Book of Genesis starting with the first taw, the Hebrew word "torah" is spelled out. The same happens in the Book of Exodus.

Image
Genesis 1:1-4. Biblia Hebraica from Kittel's edition (BHK) 1909. Four letters, 50 letters apart, starting from the first taw on the first verse, form the word תורה (Torah).

Image
Exodus 1:1-6. Biblia Hebraica from Kittel's edition (BHK) 1909. Four letters, 50 letters apart, starting from the first taw on the first verse, form the word תורה (Torah).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code
Yahweh in Leviticus

Image
Interval of Seven

In the middle book, the book of Leviticus, it doesn’t seem to work either way. But it does work for YHWH, the sacred name of God (“Yahweh” or “Jehovah,” translated “LORD” in the King James Version), if you count in seven letter increments. (See Figure 3.)

It appears that the Torah (TORH) always points toward the Name of God.

Here is the overview:

Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy
TORH > TORH > YHWH < HROT < HROT

http://www.bereanpublishers.com/a-hidden-torah-secret/
Leviticus 1:1-2:
וַיִּקְרָא, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה; וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה אֵלָיו, מֵאֹהֶל מוֹעֵד לֵאמֹר.

ב דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם, אָדָם כִּי-יַקְרִיב מִכֶּם קָרְבָּן, לַיהוָה--מִן-הַבְּהֵמָה, מִן-הַבָּקָר וּמִן-הַצֹּאן, תַּקְרִיבוּ, אֶת-קָרְבַּנְכֶם.
Hal Smith
S_Walch
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:41 pm

Re: Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

Post by S_Walch »

PakoBckuu wrote:You are right. He mixed it up by saying to start with the first letter (B) because he learned the story through the grapevine.
This is why people need to check stuff that they "hear through the grapevine". It took me 10 mins to check that what he'd stated was wrong. Was he incapable of doing it himself?
Wikipedia gives a different version of the claim:
One cited example is that by taking every 50th letter of the Book of Genesis starting with the first taw, the Hebrew word "torah" is spelled out.
Okay, when do we need to start counting again? The very next Tav that we come across in v4, or do we need to go further than that?

4 וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָאוֹר כִּי־טוֹב וַיַּבְדֵּל אֱלֹהִים בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ׃
5 וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה וַיְהִי־עֶרֶב וַיְהִי־בֹקֶר יוֹם אֶחָד׃
6 וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם׃

Because it fails straight after. Finding it once, is not the same as finding the same thing throughout.
Yahweh in Leviticus

Leviticus 1:1-2:
וַיִּקְרָא, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה; וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה אֵלָיו, מֵאֹהֶל מוֹעֵד לֵאמֹר.

ב דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם, אָדָם כִּי-יַקְרִיב מִכֶּם קָרְבָּן, לַיהוָה--מִן-הַבְּהֵמָה, מִן-הַבָּקָר וּמִן-הַצֹּאן, תַּקְרִיבוּ, אֶת-קָרְבַּנְכֶם.
As pointed out, that first letter is a Vav, not a Yod.
Ste Walch
PakoBckuu
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:51 am

Re: Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

Post by PakoBckuu »

S_Walch wrote: This is why people need to check stuff that they "hear through the grapevine". It took me 10 mins to check that what he'd stated was wrong. Was he incapable of doing it himself?
Probably too gullible.
Okay, when do we need to start counting again? The very next Tav that we come across in v4, or do we need to go further than that?

4 וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָאוֹר כִּי־טוֹב וַיַּבְדֵּל אֱלֹהִים בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ׃
5 וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה וַיְהִי־עֶרֶב וַיְהִי־בֹקֶר יוֹם אֶחָד׃
6 וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם׃

Because it fails straight after. Finding it once, is not the same as finding the same thing throughout.
Yes, I agree, S.

Here is how the website Berean Publishers explains it:
In the Hebrew text of the book of Genesis, if you take the first (“T”), then count 49 letters, the next letter (the 50th) is (“O”); the next 50th is (“R”); and then the next 50th is (“H”). In other words, after the first “T”, in 50 letter increments, we find the letters spelling “Torah.”
(Figure 1)


TORAH in Genesis
Image
Interval of 50

In the book of Exodus, we encounter the same result.
http://www.bereanpublishers.com/a-hidden-torah-secret/
I think they are saying that in the opening of both the first two books there is this 50 letter interval with "Torah", then in the third book there is a 7 letter interval with YHWH, and then in the last two books of Pentateuch there is another 50 letter interval with Torah spelled backwards.
In the fourth book of the Torah, the book of Numbers, we discover this 49 letter interval works with “HROT,” that is, TORH backwards. (See Figure 2)

Figure 2.

Backwards TORAH in Numbers
Image
Interval of -50

A similar 49 letter interval also appears in the fifth book the Torah, the book of Deuteronomy. However, in the book of Deuteronomy the interval starts in the fifth verse instead of the first. Why the fifth verse? According to the Talmud the book of Deuteronomy doesn’t begin until the fifth verse where it states “On the other side of the Jordan, in the land of Moab, Moses undertook to expound the Torah…”1

It appears that the Torah (TORH) always points toward the Name of God.

Here is the overview:

Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy
TORH > TORH > YHWH < HROT < HROT
Hal Smith
PakoBckuu
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:51 am

Re: Has a pictoral interpretation been made in the past of the Tetragrammaton's letters to form another meaning?

Post by PakoBckuu »

S_Walch wrote:
Yahweh in Leviticus

Leviticus 1:1-2:
וַיִּקְרָא, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה; וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה אֵלָיו, מֵאֹהֶל מוֹעֵד לֵאמֹר.

ב דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם, אָדָם כִּי-יַקְרִיב מִכֶּם קָרְבָּן, לַיהוָה--מִן-הַבְּהֵמָה, מִן-הַבָּקָר וּמִן-הַצֹּאן, תַּקְרִיבוּ, אֶת-קָרְבַּנְכֶם.
As pointed out, that first letter is a Vav, not a Yod.
That's not a problem, since according to the pattern, we start with the first yod. The verse need not begin with the letter of the target word.
Hal Smith
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