Jeremiah 25:9

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R.J. Furuli
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby R.J. Furuli » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:38 am

Dear Jason,

I do not know how I list your words as a quote. But I try.

No, סביב [sāḇîḇ] is not "modifying" the noun phrase in the most direct sense. However, it certainly acts like an adjective, as if there were a missing verb. "All these nations [which are] around [them]." Notice that סביב can indeed take personal endings and must be understood in that way. We should read it as if it were כל הגוים האלה [אשר] סביב[ם]‏ [kol-haggôyim hāʾḗleh (ʾăšer) səḇîḇ(ām)], with at least a relative particle inserted, if not also the mem added at the end. This is what is going on in the mind with such a construction, though the construction itself doesn't require any additional pieces. It's completely fine as-is.

The adverb would clearly be outside of the noun phrase and "modifying" the entire phrase (כל הגוים האלה) and not just the head noun (גוים). It is telling where (adverbial) "all these nations" are that are being mentioned.


The basic difference between our approaches is that I take the text as it stands, but you read words and ideas into the text that are not found there. With all respect for you as a scholar, I must say that a meaningful discussion of a particular text when this method is followed is not possible. It is like chasing ghosts. When we can add words to a text and say that this is the meaning, there are no restraints any longer. As for my part, I will discuss the text of the verse and not a supposed text.

Your point that סָבִ֑יב can take personal endings is important, because such a personal ending shows what סָבִ֑יב is around, for example “the nations around you (סְבִיבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֔ם)” in Ezekiel 5:7. This personal ending is lacking in 25:9, and this speaks against the meaning “surround,” because nothing is mentioned that could be surrounded.

I agree completely with your last paragraph, where you say that the clause in 25:9 tells where all the nations are. And this shows that the rendering “surrounding nations” violates the syntax of the clause, because סָבִ֑יב modifies the whole noun phrase and not only הַגּוֹיִ֥ם. So, the question is: Where are כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה? I can see two possibilities, as illustrated in the examples below. In example 1) סָבִ֑יב has a personal pronoun attached, which clearly shows that the meaning is “surround.” However, in example 2) the context implies that סָבִ֑יב is used in the sense “throughout” or “round about” —inside the land of the Philistines. Thus 1) refer to a specific place (around you), while 2) does not refer to a specific place, but is ambiguous.

1) Ezekiel 5:7 because you were more unruly than the nations around you (סְבִיבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֔ם).
2) 1 Chronicles 10:9 “throughout (סָבִ֑יב) the land of the Philistines”

Example 2) shows that סָבִ֗יב can refer to unspecified places inside a country, and example 1) shows that it can refer to places outside a country. I cannot see any word or accent mark in 25:9, on the basis of which we can know whether כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה are inside or outside Judah. Therefore, I find that the renderings of American Standard Version and Revised Standard Version are very fine: “all these nations round about.” These translations show the ambiguity of the word סָבִ֑יב, and they leave it to the reader to find out who these nations are and where they are.

I will remind you that the translators of the LXX most likely believed that "all these nations" referred to nations outside Judah, while the Peshitta explicitly shows that they are inside Judah.


Best regards,


Rolf Furuli
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Jason Hare
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:37 am

R.J. Furuli wrote:I do not know how I list your words as a quote. But I try.


I do sincerely appreciate that. It makes the conversation so much more comprehensible when it gets beyond one single interaction.

R.J. Furuli wrote:
Jason Hare wrote:No, סביב [sāḇîḇ] is not "modifying" the noun phrase in the most direct sense. However, it certainly acts like an adjective, as if there were a missing verb. "All these nations [which are] around [them]." Notice that סביב can indeed take personal endings and must be understood in that way. We should read it as if it were כל הגוים האלה [אשר] סביב[ם]‏ [kol-haggôyim hāʾḗleh (ʾăšer) səḇîḇ(ām)], with at least a relative particle inserted, if not also the mem added at the end. This is what is going on in the mind with such a construction, though the construction itself doesn't require any additional pieces. It's completely fine as-is.

The adverb would clearly be outside of the noun phrase and "modifying" the entire phrase (כל הגוים האלה) and not just the head noun (גוים). It is telling where (adverbial) "all these nations" are that are being mentioned.


The basic difference between our approaches is that I take the text as it stands, but you read words and ideas into the text that are not found there.


Notice what I emboldened from the portion of my post that you quoted. I stated clearly that no additions are necessary to the text. It is completely comprehensible as written. What I have done is supplied what is going on inside the mind with regard to the relation to the various pieces of the phrase.

R.J. Furuli wrote:With all respect for you as a scholar, I must say that a meaningful discussion of a particular text when this method is followed is not possible. It is like chasing ghosts. When we can add words to a text and say that this is the meaning, there are no restraints any longer. As for my part, I will discuss the text of the verse and not a supposed text.


Then the entire discipline of syntax beyond surface structure is a lost enterprise. I cannot disagree with you more strongly.

R.J. Furuli wrote:Your point that סָבִ֑יב can take personal endings is important, because such a personal ending shows what סָבִ֑יב is around, for example “the nations around you (סְבִיבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֔ם)” in Ezekiel 5:7. This personal ending is lacking in 25:9, and this speaks against the meaning “surround,” because nothing is mentioned that could be surrounded.


Again, I disagree. Is it your contention that nothing can be elided in language? We're not talking about mathematical formulas and proofs. We're talking about human expression.

R.J. Furuli wrote:I will remind you that the translators of the LXX most likely believed that "all these nations" referred to nations outside Judah, while the Peshitta explicitly shows that they are inside Judah.


I don't think we can say anything about what the translators believed. We can only say what the wrote. As it is, I don't know Syriac, so I am in no place to tell anyone what the Peshitta says. You didn't even quote the Peshitta text (as would be the polite thing to do in such conversations), which might have allowed me to make some kind of judgment based on what I know of biblical Aramaic. It could very well be that you are pushing your reading of the Hebrew (which I don't think is justified) onto the Aramaic, and I can't make my own judgment without a copy of the text to compare. (The online Peshitta that I'm familiar with doesn't contain the texts of the Tānāḵ [תנ"ך].)

Regards,
Jason
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby S_Walch » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:46 pm

I've found a version of the Peshitta OT online. Not easy to navigate (and I don't read Syriac all that well to know where to find Jer 25:9):

http://madenkha.net/holy_bible/OT/

Edit:
Quickly realised they'd thankfully highlighted the chapters in Red font, and located the verse. Granted, I can't read a word...

9:
ܗܵܐ ܡܫܲܕܲܪ ܐ̄ܢܵܐ ܘܕܲܒܲܪ ܐ̄ܢܵܐ ܠܟ݂ܠܗܹܝܢ ܫܲܖ̈ܒ̣ܵܬ̣ܵܐ ܕܡܲܠ̈ܟ̇ܘܵܬ̣ܵܐ ܕܓܲܪܒ̇ܝܵܐ ܐܵܡܲ݁ܪ ܡܵܪܝܵܐ: ܘܠܲܢܒ̣ܘܼܟܲܕ݂ܢܵܨܲܪ ܡܲܠܟܵܐ ܕܒ̣ܵܒܹܠ ܥܲܒ̣ܕܝ: ܘܐܲܝܬܸ̇ܝ ܐܸܢܘܿܢ ܥܲܠ ܐܲܪܥܵܐ ܗܵܕܹܐ ܘܥܲܠ ܥܵܡܘܿܖܹ̈ܝܗ̇: ܘܥܲܠ ܟܠܗܘܿܢ ܥܲܡܡܹ̈ܐ ܗܵܠܹܝܢ ܕܒܲܚܕ݂ܵܖܹ̈ܝܗ̇: ܘܐܸܚܪܘܿܒ̣ ܐܸܢܘܿܢ: ܘܐܸܥܒܸ̇ܕܪ ܐܸܢܘܿܢ ܠܬܸܡܗܵܐ ܘܲܠܡܲܫܪܘܿܩܝܼܬ̣ܵܐ: ܘܲܠܚܘܿܪܒܵܐ ܠܥܵܠܲܡ.
Ste Walch

R.J. Furuli
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby R.J. Furuli » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:11 pm

Dear friends,

I do not know how to write Hebrew letters in my post, so I past a jpeg of the Hebrew letters corresponding to the Syriac ones (I hope this works):

Transliteration and translation:

'l 'ar'' hd'
over this land

w'l 'mwryh and over its inhabitants

w'l 'mm' hlyn and over these peoples ('m -plural)

dbhdryh which (d) in (b) (circle, circumjacent places, suburbs, surroundings (hdr) her (h)

The h at the end of the substantives is 3 fem sing suff. Its antecedent is 'r' (land) which is feminine.

The d in the last word-construction is the relative particle, b is the preposition "in/into". The meanings of hdr is seen above.

A literal translation of the last word-construction is: "which (is) in/inside her circle/surroundings/suburbs."

The preposition b shows that "these peoples" are inside the land of Judah.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
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R.J. Furuli
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby R.J. Furuli » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:29 pm

Dear friends,

I was in a hurry when I wrote my last post. The copula in the last word-construction shall of course be translated in English as "are" and not "is." Those of you who know Biblical Aramaic will see that the Syriac text is close to that language. One difference is that the emphatic state of the substantive in Biblical Aramaic is definite, but the emphatic state in Syriac can be definite or indefinite; the context must decide.

The demonstrative after 'r'' (this land) makes it definite, the h-suffix after 'amwr (inhabitant(s) makes this substantive definite, and the demonstrative after 'mm' (peoples) makes this substantive definite. The word 'm in Aramaic has the meaning "nation/people" and the same is true in Syriac.

The Aramaic word 'm refers to "people" just as the corresponding Hebrew word does. Both Israel and Judah are in Hebrew referred to as 'm, both in singular and plural. The Syriac word 'am is also a generic word for "people," with many different references, and it occurs 3,059 times in the Peshitta. This shows that the use of it in Jeremiah 25:9 is closer to the Hebrew word 'm that occurs 1,858 times in the Hebrew text of the Tanach than to the Hebrew word gwy that occurs 560 times.

Best regards,

Rolf J Furuli
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby SteveMiller » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:16 pm

R.J. Furuli wrote:
When we try to find who these goyim are and where they are, there is one error that is easily made, namely, that the word goyim must refer to pagan nations outside Judah. It is true that goyim often refers to pagan nations, but it also refers to Israel and Judah. Some examples are:

1) To Abraham it was said, “I will make you a great nation (goy).” (Genesis 12:2)
2) The father of the nation of Israel went down to Egypt, and it was said about him: “But there he became a great nation (goy). (Deuteronomy
26:5)
3) In connection with the covenant at Sinai, it was said to Israel: “You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (goy). (Exodus
19:6)
4) Jeremiah refers to the people in Jerusalem and Judah with the word "goy." (5:9, 29; 9:9(8))
5) The plural form goyim is used in Ezekiel 2:3: “And he said to him: ‘I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to rebellious nations (goyim) that have rebelled against me.”
The plural form in example 5) is particularly important, because it refers to the clans and tribes of the Jews as goyim.


Rolf,
thank you for answering.
I know that Israel is called a goy, nation many times.
But I don't know of any place where Israel is called goyim except when it was split into 2 nations: the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. Then there were 2 nations, goim. That is what Ezekiel 2:3 is referring to. The book of Ezekiel is about the state of both nations. For example in chapter 4 Ezekiel lays on his right side for Judah and on his left side for Israel.
I think the fact that goyim plural cannot refer to Judah decides the case. unless someone can come up with a better example of Judah being called goyim.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Kirk Lowery
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby Kirk Lowery » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:05 am

Rolf (and everyone),

Writing Hebrew in the forum is pretty easy these days. We have a detailed post about How do I write Hebrew in my posts?

We strongly recommend installing the SBL Hebrew font, and using UTF-8 encoding. This font can handle the proper display of vowels and diacritics instead of getting those ugly squares. :-)

You can simply copy and paste the Biblical Hebrew text easily by using the Tanakh website.

If you use the full editor, a toolbar of buttons for the most commonly used BBCodes can be entered to save on the typing.

Hope this helps.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby Jason Hare » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:47 am

I looked up the text using CAL from the HUC, and I just wanted to correct what's written in the image above. The demonstrative adjective is הדא rather than הדע, as it's been transcribed in the image above. Look here:

Image

At this point, I have simply transcribed the Estrangelo to the Ashur script and set it opposite Pseudo-Jonathan's Aramaic. Where the Peshitta reads dbḥdryh, Jonathan reads sḥwr sḥwr. I find it interesting that you accused me of "chasing ghosts" and "read[ing] words and ideas into the text that are not found there," when the Peshitta that you're calling as a witness does exactly the same thing that I did, by using a relative particle (Hebrew אשר = Aramaic ד) and adding a personal suffix to the word (Hebrew ה = Aramaic יה [in this case]). You were rude to me on this front, yet the Aramaic text you're using was trying to represent what was going on in the minds of the those who would read the text - by adding a relative clause with a personal ending. Why would you be rude to me when your own text does the same thing?

I'll consider the meaning of the Aramaic on my own. I'm not convinced that it means what you claim it means, just as the Hebrew certainly doesn't mean what you claim.
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby S_Walch » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:14 pm

Couldn't דבחדריה/ܕܒܲܚܕ݂ܵܖܹ̈ܝܗ̇/dbhdryh mean 'which are among her surrounding areas" ?

Just basing that on the Lexicon http://cal.huc.edu/getlex.php?coord=620132509&word=25
Last edited by S_Walch on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby S_Walch » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:16 pm

Kirk Lowery wrote:Writing Hebrew in the forum is pretty easy these days.

How about Syriac? It isn't showing up quite as well during a copy + paste =/
Ste Walch


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