Jeremiah 25:9

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Isaac Fried
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby Isaac Fried » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:49 am

Appears to me that this חדר is but a variant to the Hebrew חצר of which חָצֵר XACER, (not directly related to חציר XACIYR, 'hay'), 'yard, courtyard, farm'. Compare German "Hof".

See Joshua 19:7-8
עַיִן רִמּוֹן וָעֶתֶר וְעָשָׁן עָרִים אַרְבַּע וְחַצְרֵיהֶן וְכָל הַחֲצֵרִים אֲשֶׁר סְבִיבוֹת הֶעָרִים הָאֵלֶּה עַד בַּעֲלַת בְּאֵר רָאמַת נֶגֶב
KJV: "Ain, Remmon, and Ether, and Ashan; four cities and their villages. And all the villages that were round about these cities to Baalathbeer, Ramath of the south. This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Simeon according to their families."

Isaac Fried, Boston University

kwrandolph
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby kwrandolph » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:22 am

A thought just came to mind:

The nations that inhabited Canaan before Israel invaded under Joshua, were never totally extirpated in the invasion and subsequent settlement of the land. How many were still recognizable at Jeremiah’s time? Would that not fit “all these nations”?

My 2¢.

Karl W. Randolph.

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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby SteveMiller » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:41 pm

R.J. Furuli wrote:Dear Steve,

You wrote:

Rolf,
thank you for answering.
I know that Israel is called a goy, nation many times.
But I don't know of any place where Israel is called goyim except when it was split into 2 nations: the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. Then there were 2 nations, goim. That is what Ezekiel 2:3 is referring to. The book of Ezekiel is about the state of both nations. For example in chapter 4 Ezekiel lays on his right side for Judah and on his left side for Israel.
I think the fact that goyim plural cannot refer to Judah decides the case. unless someone can come up with a better example of Judah being called goyim


I understand your reasoning, which is logical. And your conclusion that כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה cannot refer to the inhabitants of Judah is a legitimate interpretation. I will now make an outline of my interpretation, so the listmembers can compare your interpretation with mine.

It is correct that Ezekiel should literally act as prophet both for Israel and Judah according to Ezekiel, chapter 4. But it seems to me that his words in chapter chapter 2 are directed to another audience. Ezekiel was taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar in 617 BCE (I use the Biblical chronology, not the traditional one), and he was taken to Babylon. Ezekiel heard the words from God when he was at the river Kebar (1:3), and to whom did he speak? To the exiles who were at the river Kebar. The ten-tribe kingdom had been destroyed more than one hundred years before Ezekiel got his visions, so he could not speak to the inhabitants of Israel.

Rolf,
Thanks for spending the time on this.
I think you are saying that Ezekiel could not have been sent to what was left of the northern 10 tribes because they had been destroyed, and could no longer be considered a nation.
Besides Ezek 4 which has separate judgments for Israel and Judah, there is also chapter 37 in which there are 2 sticks: Judah and Ephraim. God says in 37:22 that these are 2 goim, but He will make them 1 goi again.
So when God tells Ezekiel in 2:3 that He sends him to the children of Israel, to nations who are rebels, that is to the 2 nations that compose the children of Israel at this time.

This is beside the point, but this is how I understand the time period for which Israel was composed of 2 nations. In Ezek 4 Ezekiel acts out 390 days signifying 390 years for the northern kingdom of Israel as time that they ate a small measured amount of good food mixed with a man's dung. If the 390 years start with Jereboam, which is the earliest we could start it, and which is the time that their religion became mixed with human dung, then the 10 northern tribes exist as a separate nation up until the full captivity of Judah.

So, since no one can come up with another reference to Judah or Israel as goim, plural, this despite the fact that Israel and Judah are the main human subjects of the OT, and the word goim is a very common word, I conclude that "all these nations round about" cannot refer to Judah.

R.J. Furuli wrote:A Hebrew word used by an author often has a big meaning potential and many possible references, and often the context will help the reader to see which side of the word the author wants to make visible and what its reference is. The meaning of כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה is clear, but the reference is unclear. Regarding סָבִ֑יב, which side of its meaning potential that the author wants to make visible, is not clear. This means that the reference of כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה סָבִ֑יב is ambiguous.

I will now give an outline of why I believe כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה סָבִ֑יב refer to the inhabitants of Judah, so the listmembers can consider my arguments.

1. TWO PARLLEL ACCOUNTS

In Jeremiah 1:15-16 we find an account that is very similar to the account in 25:9: I list the parallels below.

Jer 25:9 Look! I will send for, and I will take all the families of the north, is the utterance of YHWH, also to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babel, my servant.
Jer 1:15 For look! I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, is the utterance of YHWH.

Jer 25:9 And I will cause them to come
Jer 1:15 And they will come

Jer 25:9 against this land, and against its inhabitants, and against all these nations round about.
Jer 1:15 and each one will set up his throne in the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all her walls round about, and against all the towns of Judah.

Jer 25:9 And I will destroy them, and devote them to desolation, to a whisling, and and to devastation to time indefinite.
Jer 1:16 And I will declare my judgment against them.

The parallels are listed, and of particular interest is that there are three different objects that the nations will come against in both accounts, and all objects are inside the country in 1:15, 16. The parallel between “against all these nations round about (25:9) is “all the towns of Judah (1:15). This does not prove that “all these nations round about” refers to the inhabitants of Judah, but it is an interesting background of the points that follow. (I translate סָבִ֔יב in כָּל־חוֹמֹתֶ֙יהָ֙ סָבִ֔יבi in as "round about." The suffix of "walls" identifies the walls as those of Jerusalem. But because Jerusalem had other walls than those around the city, I use the ambiguous "round about."

This is an informative parallel, but very weak evidence for "this land and its inhabitants and all these nations round about" = "Jerusalem and all the towns of Judah". It can simply be that the scope of the message in Jer 25 goes beyond that of Jer 1.

R.J. Furuli wrote:2. TWO INDEPENDENT MESSAGES FROM GOD

The book of Jeremiah contains many independent messages that Jeremiah says he received from God. In the first message (1:4-12) God says to Jeremiah that he should be a prophet for the nations (1:5, 10). After this message has ended, he received a new message (1:13-19), and this message relates to Jerusalem and Judah. It is important to realize that these two messages are independent of one another.

In Jeremiah 25:1-14 there is one independent message that speaks about all the people of Judah. The verses 25:15-38 contain another message directed to “all the nations to whom I send you.” Both messages are independent of each other, and they are given at different times. This means that that the different parts of 25:1-14 are included in one unit and each expression here must be seen in the light of this independent unit (message), and not in the light of the following message.

They are not 2 independent messages because the 2nd message which begins in v15 starts with ‎ כִּ֣י. The first message transitions to the 2nd. So it is fine for "all these nations round about" to have its antecedant in the 2nd part of the message. The 2nd message explains something in the first message. It explains what will happen to all these nations round about.

R.J. Furuli wrote:3. THE DIFFERENT EXPRESSIONS

a) אֵ֖לֶּה. The demonstrative pronoun must have an antecedent, and it is logical to seek this antecedent in the message where it occurs, and not in another message that Jeremiah had not yet received.

see above that these are not 2 independent messages

R.J. Furuli wrote:b) כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה. “The people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (25:2) are plural and would be a natural antecedent to “all these nations.” It is the land of Judah that will be destryed (25:11), and people outside Judah are not mentioned in the independent message (25:1-14)

We know the lands around Judah will also be destroyed by Babylon, and above 25:1-14 is not an independent message from what follows.

R.J. Furuli wrote:c) סָבִ֑יב. As I have shown, this word can be specific (surrounding) and non-specific (round about). It can refer to something around a country, as well as inside a country. In 25:9 the word is ambiguous, and the exact place where “All these nations are” cannot be known. Therefore, the context must decide.

Can you give me a verse where sabib refers to something within a country? There are 338 uses of it, so too much for me to look up now. I don't see that meaning in HALOT. thanks.


R.J. Furuli wrote:4. THE 70 YEARS

The message in 25:1-14 speaks about the condition of Judah as a desolate waste. This deserted condition should last for 70 years, when “these nations” should serve the king of Babylon (25:11). In the other instances where the 70 years are mentioned, they exclusively refer to the Jews, and their return to their land (Jeremiah 29:10, Daniel 9:2, 2 Chronicles 36:21). A prophecy saying that “all nations surrounding Judah” should serve Babylon for 70 years would hardly give any meaning as far as the time is concerned.

All the nations there served Babylon for 70 years. When Cyrus defeated Babylon, those nations no longer served Babylon.
Isa 23:15-17 says Tyre would be forgotten for 70 years. I think this refers to its captivity by Babylon. Ezek 26:7 says God will bring Nebuchnezzar against Tyre.

R.J. Furuli wrote:My conclusion is that linguistically speaking the expression כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה סָבִ֑יב is ambiguous. But contextually speaking, there are very good reasons to apply the expression to the three tribes and representatives of the other tribes who lived in Judah and who were taken to Babylon.

With Israel being the major human subject of the OT, and goim plural being used 432 times, I would expect that if cal hagoim haela referred to Israel, there would be at least one unambiguous reference to Israel as goim plural in the OT. The one example of Ezek 2:3 can be easily explained as referring to the 2 nations that Israel had become: Judah and Ephraim, since God refers to them as 2 nations later in Ezek 23:22. The destruction of all these nations round about Israel is explicitly described in the 2nd part of this prophecy, which is not an independent prophecy because it starts with ki, so the antecedents for all these nations round about is the verses following v15.

Thanks Rolf. I learned a lot trying to answer your points.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:15 am

Dear Steve,

Thank you for your well reasoned response. The listmembers can now compare our arguments and views and form their own views.

Can you give me a verse where sabib refers to something within a country? There are 338 uses of it, so too much for me to look up now. I don't see that meaning in HALOT. thanks.


The important point regarding סְבִיבֹ is that sometimes the reference is specific: the word refers to something that is around or surrounding an object.
But at other times the word is non-specific and refer to something "round about" or inside an object. When the word is specific, it often has a suffix pointing to the object that is surrounded:

Leviticus 25:44 the nations that are around you הַגּוֹיִ֗ם אֲשֶׁר֙ סְבִיבֹ֣תֵיכֶ֔ם
Deuteronomy 17:14 like all the nations that are around me כְּכָל־הַגּוֹיִ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר סְבִיבֹתָֽי
2 Kings 17:15 The nations that were around them הַגּוֹיִם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִֽיבֹתָ֔ם
Ezekiel 5:7 The nations around you מִן־הַגּוֹיִם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִיבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֔ם
Ezekiel 5:14 The nations around you בַּגּוֹיִ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִיבוֹתָ֑יִךְ
Ezekiel 11:12 the nations that are around you הַגּוֹיִ֛ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר סְבִיבוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם
Nehemiah 5:17 from all the nations that are around us מִן־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם אֲשֶׁר־סְבִיבֹתֵ֖ינוּ
Nehemia 6:16 from all the nations that are around us כָּל־הַגּוֹיִם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִֽיבֹתֵ֔ינוּ
Joel 4:11 all nations from on every side כָֽל־הַגּוֹיִ֛ם מִסָּבִ֖יב
Joel 4:12 all nations from every side כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֖ם מִסָּבִֽיב

When the word is non-specific, there is no suffix, as in Jeremiah 25:9, 11.

1 Kings 4:31 (5:11) all the nations round about ‏בְכָֽל־הַגּוֹיִ֖ם סָבִֽיב
Ezekiel 19:8 nations round about גּוֹיִ֛ם סָבִ֖יב
Zechariah 14:14 all the nations round about כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֜ם סָבִ֗יב

One example where סָבִ֖יב refers to somthing inside an object is 1 Chronicles 10:9 וַיְשַׁלְּח֨וּ בְאֶֽרֶץ־פְלִשְׁתִּ֜ים סָבִ֗יב . Literally the text says: "And they sent in the land of Philistines round about." The rendering of NIV is: "and they sent messengers throughout the land of the Philistines."

They are not 2 independent messages because the 2nd message which begins in v15 starts with ‎ כִּ֣י. The first message transitions to the 2nd. So it is fine for "all these nations round about" to have its antecedant in the 2nd part of the message. The 2nd message explains something in the first message. It explains what will happen to all these nations round about.


The fact that Jeremiah 25:15 begins with כִּי does not mean that this is not a new message. In Jeremiah alone I count 29 examples when a new message from God begins with כִּ֣י כֹה֩ אָמַ֨ר יְהוָ֜ה . You find the same words numerous times in the other prophets as well. The particle כִּ֣י may be used for emphasis. Please also note that the message that starts in 25:15 is direced towards "all the nations to whom I send you," while the message beginning in 25:1 is directed towards "the people of Judah. Thus, the two messages refer to two different groups.

Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

R.J. Furuli
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:28 am

Dear listmembers

Jeremiah 25:12-14 is a part of the context of verse 9. I have translated these verses and the first part of verse 9, and I have analyzed the verses.

TRANSLATIONS
9. Look! I will send, and I will take all the families מִשְׁפְּח֨וֹת of the north, in addition to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babel, is the utterance of YHWH.
12. And it must occur when seventy years are filled, I will call to account the king of Babel and his nation הַגּ֨וֹי הַה֧וּא, and the land of the Chaldeans כַּשְׂדִּ֑ים for their guilt, is the utterance of YHWH. And I will turn it into desolate wastes for an indefinite time.
13. And I will bring upon this land הָאָ֣רֶץ הַהִ֔יא all my words that I speak against it, all that is written in this scroll against all the nations כָּל־הַגּוֹיִֽם, due to Jeremiah’s prophetic actions.
14. For they themselves will serve as slaves among many nations and great kings. I will repay them according to their actions and according to what they have done with their hands.

COMMENTS ON THE TRANSLATIONS
9. Before “Nebuchadnezzar” וְאֶל is written. The basic meaning of the preposition אֶל is "towards." But it can also mean “in addition to.” This seems to fit here.
12. The basic meaning of עוֹלָֽם is a period of time with an unknown length. It often refers to a time that never will end. But because the reference of the word is ambiguous, I let it be ambiguous.
13. “due to Jeremiah’s prophetic actions.” The word נִבָּ֥א is Nifal perfect, and the use of Nifal suggest the meaning, “be in a prophetic trance; behave like a prophet.”

A COMMENTARY ON THE VERSES
Who are the “families of the north”? (verse 9) The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Vol VI, p. 531, comments on the different possibilities:

“The reference to “peoples of the north” has been variously explained. These peoples have been interpreted as being the allies of the king of Babylon, the many nations comprising the Babylonian Empire, subunits, or divisions of a tribe, a political unit, or the Babylonians in general. Perhaps the last is the best interpretation because it best suits the context.”

Regarding destruction from the land of the north, see Jeremiah 6:22, 10:22. The armies that besieged Jerusalam are called “the king of Babylon and the Babylonians,” both singular and plural (21:4). In 1:15, the “kingdoms” of the north are mentioned, and this corroborate the view that the different nations of the Babylonian Empire are referred to. There were hardly other “kingdoms” in the north. As a background for the understanding of 25:12, 13, we should note that מִשְׁפְּח֨וֹת (verse 9) is plural. The references in verse 12 are הַגּ֨וֹי הַה֧וּא (this nation-singular) and כַּשְׂדִּ֑ים (Chaldeans plural).

Verse 12.
This verse is easy to understand: After 70 years, YHWH will call the king of Babylon and his nation to account.

Verse 13.
I use the English present tense in the expression “all the words that I speak.” (כָּל־דְּבָרַ֖י אֲשֶׁר־דִּבַּ֣רְתִּי) The verb is Piel perfect, and a perfect can have past, present, and future reference. Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians are mentioned several times in the chapters 1-24 as those who will destroy Jerusalem. But no words are spoken against Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians in these chapters. Moreover, 25:11, 12 show that the Babylonians would conquer Judah, but after 70 years they themselves would be conquered. Because a specific time period is mentioned, it is natural that this is the first time the conquest of the Babylonians is mentioned. There is no indication that Jeremiah received the messages in chapters 50, 51 and other chapters mentioning the defeat of Babylon before he got the message in 25:1-4. This suggests that the words spoken against Babylon in verses 12 and 14 are the reference of “all that is written in this scroll.”

A further explanation of the words follows: “all that is written in this scroll בַּסֵּ֣פֶר הַזֶּ֔ה against all the nations. What does “this scroll” refer to? Many translations use the term “this book,” and the reader may get the impression that the reference is to the whole book of Jeremiah. That impression is of course wrong, because YHWH conveyed a special message to Jeremiah in 25:1-14, and the book of Jeremiah with its 52 chapters did not exist at this moment. When the prophet got a message, he would of course write it down in a scroll (30:2), or, he would even write while he got the message. So, the only natural referent for the demonstrative pronoun and the following word סֵּ֣פֶר would be the scroll that Jeremiah was writing or would write.

But who are “all the nations”? We note that in verses 9 and 11 the expression is “all these nations,” while the expression in verse 13 is “all the nations.” Because the demonstrative אֵ֖לֶּה is lacking in verse 13, the nations mentioned in this verse must be different from the nations mentioned in verses 9 and 11. Because the judgment is against Babylon, it is logical that “all the nations” are identical with “the families to the north” (25:9), “the kingdoms of the north” (1:15) who would accompany Nebuchadnezzar. These could be different nations or tribes inside the Babylonian Empire.

14.
The first words in verse 14 support the understanding that “all these nations” refer to the Babylonians. It starts with כִּ֣י (for) and continues with “they themselves shall serve as slaves.” The only words that can be an antecedent to “they themselves” are “all these nations.”

CONCLUSION
If my analysis of 25:12-14 is correct, and my previous analysis of verses 9-11 is correct, the message to Jeremiah in 24:1-14 speaks about three different groups of nations, 1) “all these nations” (vv. 9, 11) refers to the tribes and clans in Judah, 2) “all the nations” (v 13) refers to the nations of the Babylonian Empire, and 3) “many nations and great kings” (v. 14) refers to the nations that would conquer Babylon.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby SteveMiller » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:04 pm

R.J. Furuli wrote:
Can you give me a verse where sabib refers to something within a country? There are 338 uses of it, so too much for me to look up now. I don't see that meaning in HALOT. thanks.


The important point regarding סְבִיבֹ is that sometimes the reference is specific: the word refers to something that is around or surrounding an object.
But at other times the word is non-specific and refer to something "round about" or inside an object. When the word is specific, it often has a suffix pointing to the object that is surrounded:

Leviticus 25:44 the nations that are around you הַגּוֹיִ֗ם אֲשֶׁר֙ סְבִיבֹ֣תֵיכֶ֔ם
Deuteronomy 17:14 like all the nations that are around me כְּכָל־הַגּוֹיִ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר סְבִיבֹתָֽי
2 Kings 17:15 The nations that were around them הַגּוֹיִם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִֽיבֹתָ֔ם
Ezekiel 5:7 The nations around you מִן־הַגּוֹיִם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִיבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֔ם
Ezekiel 5:14 The nations around you בַּגּוֹיִ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִיבוֹתָ֑יִךְ
Ezekiel 11:12 the nations that are around you הַגּוֹיִ֛ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר סְבִיבוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם
Nehemiah 5:17 from all the nations that are around us מִן־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם אֲשֶׁר־סְבִיבֹתֵ֖ינוּ
Nehemia 6:16 from all the nations that are around us כָּל־הַגּוֹיִם֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר סְבִֽיבֹתֵ֔ינוּ
Joel 4:11 all nations from on every side כָֽל־הַגּוֹיִ֛ם מִסָּבִ֖יב
Joel 4:12 all nations from every side כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֖ם מִסָּבִֽיב

When the word is non-specific, there is no suffix, as in Jeremiah 25:9, 11.

1 Kings 4:31 (5:11) all the nations round about ‏בְכָֽל־הַגּוֹיִ֖ם סָבִֽיב
Ezekiel 19:8 nations round about גּוֹיִ֛ם סָבִ֖יב
Zechariah 14:14 all the nations round about כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֜ם סָבִ֗יב

One example where סָבִ֖יב refers to somthing inside an object is 1 Chronicles 10:9 וַיְשַׁלְּח֨וּ בְאֶֽרֶץ־פְלִשְׁתִּ֜ים סָבִ֗יב . Literally the text says: "And they sent in the land of Philistines round about." The rendering of NIV is: "and they sent messengers throughout the land of the Philistines."


Thanks Rolf. I see why round about is a better translation of the word.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Isaac Fried
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Re: Jeremiah 25:9

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:17 pm

Here is more about חצר XACER (related to חדר XEDER, 'room')
Isaiah 42:11
חֲצֵרִים תֵּשֵׁב קֵדָר
KJV: "the villages that Kedar doth inhabit"

Nehemiah 12:29
כִּי חֲצֵרִים בָּנוּ לָהֶם הַמְשֹׁרֲרִים סְבִיבוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם
KJV: "for the singers had builded them villages round about Jerusalem.

Isaac Fried, Boston University


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