When was the book of Daniel written?

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SteveMiller
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby SteveMiller » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:56 pm

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:At this point I will try to translate v25:
And know and understand: From the going forth of the word to bring back and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah Prince (or annointed prince) shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks.


You have the period in the wrong place. “And 62 weeks…” is connected to what follows, namely the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

I think it could go either way in the Hebrew. Which way to go depends on how it matches the fulfillment.

kwrandolph wrote:That means that there were 49 years after Nehemiah was commanded to rebuild Jerusalem until משיח נגיד with the 62 weeks being a separate time line.

Why even have two time lines, if only one is meant?

There is one time line, 70 weeks portioned out for Israel, on which are major milestones.

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:She shall return and be built, the street and moat, and in troublous times.
As you can see, the way I've translated it, it is 7 + 62 weeks until messiah the prince.


That “+” is not supported by the language used.

"and" usually means +. If I say I will pay you $10 and $50, then you would expect to get paid $10 first and $50 later for a total of $60, not a total of $50.
Also, it says that the total is 70 weeks. 7 + 62 + 1 = 70
If the 7 weeks and 62 weeks are concurrent, then we don't get a total of 70 weeks.

kwrandolph wrote:
“For” is an acknowledgement of one of the differences between Hebrew and English.

Thanks Karl

kwrandolph wrote:
I agree with Jason here, that the same rules of grammar apply. There are plenty of examples in Tanakh of a “waw-consecutive” referring to a concurrent action. The most famous that I can think of right away are found in Proverbs 31:11–31.

I think you meant to say you agree with me that the same rules of grammar apply to prophecy as to narrative.
But your interpretation agrees with Jason's much more than with mine.
I read Prov 31:11-31 and I don't see any waw-consecutives there which are not sequential. Notably, for actions that are concurrent there, waw-consecutives are not used.

kwrandolph wrote:
There’s no mention of a “strong 7 year covenant” in the verse. The word הגביר is a verb with the basic idea of overpowering, mastering. So a translation could be “And seven years he (the people mentioned in the previous verse) will cause a covenant for many to overpower …” It took seven years for the Roman people to put down the Jewish revolt and to reimpose Pax Romana (covenant) onto the land.

How did the Romans cause a covenant for many to overpower?
Also, the rebellion in Jerusalem was subdued in 70 AD, which is 4 years from the start of the rebellion.
I think you're getting 7 years by stretching it out to include Masada, which is not the subject of these verses.

I don't know how to translate v27 either. I will attempt it. Please take it apart:
9:27 And he will cause a covenant to prevail to many for one week.
And in the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and gift offering to cease,
and [that] on account of the pinnacle of abominations [which] desolates, and [it will be] until the end.
And what is determined will be poured out upon the desolator.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby kwrandolph » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:14 am

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:She shall return and be built, the street and moat, and in troublous times.
As you can see, the way I've translated it, it is 7 + 62 weeks until messiah the prince.


That “+” is not supported by the language used.

"and" usually means +.


In Hebrew that is true almost always only for long numbers, like “one thousand and two hundred and fifty and five” or turned around, where the “and” puts numbers over what would be zeros. Here there are no zeros.

Remind me if there are any exceptions to what I just said.

SteveMiller wrote:Also, it says that the total is 70 weeks. 7 + 62 + 1 = 70
If the 7 weeks and 62 weeks are concurrent, then we don't get a total of 70 weeks.


You don’t get a total of 70 weeks, because Messiah is cut off after the 62 weeks, he was not cut off on exactly the 62 weeks. In other words, you need to add one to five years to the 62 sevens of years to fulfill that prophesy. Once you do that, then you have more than 70 sevens of years according to your reckoning.

Nowhere in the prophesy does it say that the three subdivisions have to add up to make 70 sevens. In fact, the last seven years are not listed as a subdivision of the 70 sevens.

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
There’s no mention of a “strong 7 year covenant” in the verse. The word הגביר is a verb with the basic idea of overpowering, mastering. So a translation could be “And seven years he (the people mentioned in the previous verse) will cause a covenant for many to overpower …” It took seven years for the Roman people to put down the Jewish revolt and to reimpose Pax Romana (covenant) onto the land.

How did the Romans cause a covenant for many to overpower?


With swords, spears and in the cases of siege, ballistras.

SteveMiller wrote:Also, the rebellion in Jerusalem was subdued in 70 AD, which is 4 years from the start of the rebellion.


About halfway through the fourth year, i.e. 3.5 years from the beginning of the war.

SteveMiller wrote:I think you're getting 7 years by stretching it out to include Masada, which is not the subject of these verses.


All histories I’ve read of the Jewish revolt end with the fall of Masada, seven years after the start of the war.

Look at verse 24, “Seventy sevens are determined upon your people …” that includes up to Masada.

Looking at history and the Gospels, in particular Luke who connected Jesus’ life with Roman history, we get the following (remembering that the dates could be a few years off):

Jesus born when Cyrene was on his first time as governor of Syria — 7 BC
Herod the Great died — 4 BC
Romans take away self-rule from Judea fulfilling Genesis 49:10 — 5 AD
Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem after Passover, at 12 years old — 5 AD
Tiberius’ 15th year, start of John the Baptist’s ministry — 20 AD

We don’t have exact years for Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. Jesus was “about 30” when he started his ministry, an exact age was not given. The following is assuming 30 years old at beginning of public ministry:

Start of Jesus’ ministry — 23 AD
Jesus’ crucifixion — 26 AD

Admittedly the dates don’t add up exactly with the prophesy in Daniel, unless after 63 sevens is included in the “after 62 sevens”. But remember, all of these dates are educated guesses, and could be off by two or three years, and within that fuzziness an exact match with Daniel’s prophesy can fit. (I think historians are doing pretty well to get these dates to within two or three years.)

SteveMiller wrote:I don't know how to translate v27 either. I will attempt it. Please take it apart:
9:27 And he will cause a covenant to prevail to many for one week.
And in the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and gift offering to cease,


I don’t agree 100 %, but it’s close enough I won’t quibble.

SteveMiller wrote:and [that] on account of the pinnacle of abominations [which] desolates, and [it will be] until the end.
And what is determined will be poured out upon the desolator.


The Hebrew for this section is as follows:
ועל כנף שקוצים משמם ועד כלה ונחרצה תתך על שמם

Is כנף a covering, a wing, or the action of presenting with a prefixed כ?
The word ‎שקוץ an object used in the performance of detestable actions, e.g. an idol Dt 29:16(17), Is 66:3, Dn 11:31, 12:11, 2C 15:8
The word משמם making desolated?
Completion, end כלה
To act decisively, passive ונחרצה
Oppression תתך from the verb תכך ?
Desolation שמם ?

It’s quite a challenge to translate this one.

Yours, Karl W. Randolph.

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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby SteveMiller » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:27 pm

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:That “+” is not supported by the language used.

"and" usually means +.


In Hebrew that is true almost always only for long numbers, like “one thousand and two hundred and fifty and five” or turned around, where the “and” puts numbers over what would be zeros. Here there are no zeros.

Remind me if there are any exceptions to what I just said.

Can you give me an example where "and" does not mean "plus"?

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Also, it says that the total is 70 weeks. 7 + 62 + 1 = 70
If the 7 weeks and 62 weeks are concurrent, then we don't get a total of 70 weeks.


You don’t get a total of 70 weeks, because Messiah is cut off after the 62 weeks, he was not cut off on exactly the 62 weeks. In other words, you need to add one to five years to the 62 sevens of years to fulfill that prophesy. Once you do that, then you have more than 70 sevens of years according to your reckoning.

If years start on Passover, then Jesus was cut off at the very end of a year, which would be the very end of the 62'd week.
"after the 62 weeks" does not necessarily mean "totally after" in human language. For example, Jesus said that after 3 days He would rise again (Mar 8:31). But he rose on the 3rd day (Mat 16:21), not on the 4th day. So, "after the 62 weeks" could mean on the last day of the 62 weeks.
The destruction of the city and sanctuary which follows is totally after the 62 weeks, but before the start of the 70th week. That destruction takes place outside of the 70 weeks.


kwrandolph wrote:Nowhere in the prophesy does it say that the three subdivisions have to add up to make 70 sevens.

It is what you would expect from v24. And then the 3 numbers of weeks add up to 70. I'll just agree to disagree on this point.

kwrandolph wrote:In fact, the last seven years are not listed as a subdivision of the 70 sevens.

It does deliberately say ‎ שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד, one week. Not just "a" week.
The listing of the last week is different than the previous 2 subdivisions. The previous 2 are contiguous. The last week is not contiguous.

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:There’s no mention of a “strong 7 year covenant” in the verse. The word הגביר is a verb with the basic idea of overpowering, mastering. So a translation could be “And seven years he (the people mentioned in the previous verse) will cause a covenant for many to overpower …” It took seven years for the Roman people to put down the Jewish revolt and to reimpose Pax Romana (covenant) onto the land.

How did the Romans cause a covenant for many to overpower?


With swords, spears and in the cases of siege, ballistras.

Ok. What I mean is where is the covenant? An army overpowering people with weapons is different than a covenant doing so.

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Also, the rebellion in Jerusalem was subdued in 70 AD, which is 4 years from the start of the rebellion.


About halfway through the fourth year, i.e. 3.5 years from the beginning of the war.

ok

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:I think you're getting 7 years by stretching it out to include Masada, which is not the subject of these verses.


All histories I’ve read of the Jewish revolt end with the fall of Masada, seven years after the start of the war.

Look at verse 24, “Seventy sevens are determined upon your people …” that includes up to Masada.

ok. I take that back. Mainly I want to see the 7-year covenant.

kwrandolph wrote:Looking at history and the Gospels, in particular Luke who connected Jesus’ life with Roman history, we get the following (remembering that the dates could be a few years off):

Jesus born when Cyrene was on his first time as governor of Syria — 7 BC
Herod the Great died — 4 BC
Romans take away self-rule from Judea fulfilling Genesis 49:10 — 5 AD
Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem after Passover, at 12 years old — 5 AD
Tiberius’ 15th year, start of John the Baptist’s ministry — 20 AD

We don’t have exact years for Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. Jesus was “about 30” when he started his ministry, an exact age was not given. The following is assuming 30 years old at beginning of public ministry:

Start of Jesus’ ministry — 23 AD
Jesus’ crucifixion — 26 AD

Admittedly the dates don’t add up exactly with the prophesy in Daniel, unless after 63 sevens is included in the “after 62 sevens”. But remember, all of these dates are educated guesses, and could be off by two or three years, and within that fuzziness an exact match with Daniel’s prophesy can fit. (I think historians are doing pretty well to get these dates to within two or three years.)

I thought your interpretation of the 70 weeks does not mention Jesus. Did I misunderstand?

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:and [that] on account of the pinnacle of abominations [which] desolates, and [it will be] until the end.
And what is determined will be poured out upon the desolator.


The Hebrew for this section is as follows:
ועל כנף שקוצים משמם ועד כלה ונחרצה תתך על שמם

Is כנף a covering, a wing, or the action of presenting with a prefixed כ?

A good question. Doing a BibleWorks search, I find not a single instance where the preposition על is followed directly by the particle כ, excepting where there is a pronoun suffix on על. So I think we can rule out that option.
I translated it as pinnacle from it's meaning of extremity in Ezek 7:2 and many others. LXX uses the Greek πτερύγιον sometimes to translate the Hebrew word.

kwrandolph wrote:The word ‎שקוץ an object used in the performance of detestable actions, e.g. an idol Dt 29:16(17), Is 66:3, Dn 11:31, 12:11, 2C 15:8

that is what I had in mind

kwrandolph wrote:The word משמם making desolated?

From my Saffa verb table program it's a masc. singular participle, either hifil with a 3mp pronoun suffix or piel
Since it's singular, the subject is כנף.

kwrandolph wrote:Completion, end כלה

Yes. And I don't think that fits the 70 AD destruction because Jerusalem is a vibrant city today.

kwrandolph wrote:To act decisively, passive ונחרצה
Oppression תתך from the verb תכך ?

I don't see תכך as an option. Saffa shows either from the root נתך (melt or pour out) or from the root נתן (give).
נתך: qal 3fs or 2ms imperfect or hufal 3fs or 2ms imperfect
נתן: qal infinitive with 2ms or 2fs pronoun suffix

kwrandolph wrote:Desolation שמם ?

Just looking at the noun possibilities: qal ms participle, qal infinitive noun with 3mp suffix or piel infinitive noun.
Lam 3:11 he has made me a desolation
Dan 8:13 transgression that desolates
Dan 12:11 abomination that desolates
Seems like it could be either desolation or desolator.

Thanks Karl. It sure is a hard one to translate. That's why it's good to collaborate.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby kwrandolph » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:00 am

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:"and" usually means +.


In Hebrew that is true almost always only for long numbers, like “one thousand and two hundred and fifty and five” or turned around, where the “and” puts numbers over what would be zeros. Here there are no zeros.

Remind me if there are any exceptions to what I just said.

Can you give me an example where "and" does not mean "plus"?


With the exception of numbers like what I mentioned above, I can’t think of a single example of where “and” = numerical +.

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Also, it says that the total is 70 weeks. 7 + 62 + 1 = 70
If the 7 weeks and 62 weeks are concurrent, then we don't get a total of 70 weeks.


You don’t get a total of 70 weeks, because Messiah is cut off after the 62 weeks, he was not cut off on exactly the 62 weeks. In other words, you need to add one to five years to the 62 sevens of years to fulfill that prophesy. Once you do that, then you have more than 70 sevens of years according to your reckoning.

If years start on Passover, then Jesus was cut off at the very end of a year, which would be the very end of the 62'd week.


You’re grasping at straws.

SteveMiller wrote:"after the 62 weeks" does not necessarily mean "totally after" in human language. For example, Jesus said that after 3 days He would rise again (Mar 8:31). But he rose on the 3rd day (Mat 16:21), not on the 4th day. So, "after the 62 weeks" could mean on the last day of the 62 weeks.


Can you give any examples of אחר being used that way in Biblical Hebrew?

SteveMiller wrote:The destruction of the city and sanctuary which follows is totally after the 62 weeks, but before the start of the 70th week. That destruction takes place outside of the 70 weeks.


This is the second time you’ve made this claim. Where does the text back up your claim?

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Nowhere in the prophesy does it say that the three subdivisions have to add up to make 70 sevens.

It is what you would expect from v24. And then the 3 numbers of weeks add up to 70. I'll just agree to disagree on this point.


It’s not a necessary expectation from verse 24. But it is a necessary expectation that the 70 sevens remain as a unit—you split it apart. What is the justification for splitting a single unit into two units?

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:In fact, the last seven years are not listed as a subdivision of the 70 sevens.

It does deliberately say ‎ שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד, one week. Not just "a" week.
The listing of the last week is different than the previous 2 subdivisions. The previous 2 are contiguous. The last week is not contiguous.

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:How did the Romans cause a covenant for many to overpower?


With swords, spears and in the cases of siege, ballistras.

Ok. What I mean is where is the covenant? An army overpowering people with weapons is different than a covenant doing so.


What about an army acting under the authority of the covenant to impose said covenant?

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Also, the rebellion in Jerusalem was subdued in 70 AD, which is 4 years from the start of the rebellion.


About halfway through the fourth year, i.e. 3.5 years from the beginning of the war.

ok

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:I think you're getting 7 years by stretching it out to include Masada, which is not the subject of these verses.


All histories I’ve read of the Jewish revolt end with the fall of Masada, seven years after the start of the war.

Look at verse 24, “Seventy sevens are determined upon your people …” that includes up to Masada.

ok. I take that back. Mainly I want to see the 7-year covenant.


What seven year covenant? Where in the text does it say that there was a seven year covenant? What makes you think that there was a seven year covenant? All the text says is that it took seven years to impose a covenant, namely the covenant of Pax Romana.

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Looking at history and the Gospels, in particular Luke who connected Jesus’ life with Roman history, we get the following (remembering that the dates could be a few years off):

Jesus born when Cyrene was on his first time as governor of Syria — 7 BC
Herod the Great died — 4 BC
Romans take away self-rule from Judea fulfilling Genesis 49:10 — 5 AD
Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem after Passover, at 12 years old — 5 AD
Tiberius’ 15th year, start of John the Baptist’s ministry — 20 AD

We don’t have exact years for Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. Jesus was “about 30” when he started his ministry, an exact age was not given. The following is assuming 30 years old at beginning of public ministry:

Start of Jesus’ ministry — 23 AD
Jesus’ crucifixion — 26 AD

Admittedly the dates don’t add up exactly with the prophesy in Daniel, unless after 63 sevens is included in the “after 62 sevens”. But remember, all of these dates are educated guesses, and could be off by two or three years, and within that fuzziness an exact match with Daniel’s prophesy can fit. (I think historians are doing pretty well to get these dates to within two or three years.)

I thought your interpretation of the 70 weeks does not mention Jesus. Did I misunderstand?


Yes, you misunderstood. I just didn’t push it before.

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:and [that] on account of the pinnacle of abominations [which] desolates, and [it will be] until the end.
And what is determined will be poured out upon the desolator.


The Hebrew for this section is as follows:
ועל כנף שקוצים משמם ועד כלה ונחרצה תתך על שמם

Is כנף a covering, a wing, or the action of presenting with a prefixed כ?

A good question. Doing a BibleWorks search, I find not a single instance where the preposition על is followed directly by the particle כ, excepting where there is a pronoun suffix on על. So I think we can rule out that option.
I translated it as pinnacle from it's meaning of extremity in Ezek 7:2 and many others. LXX uses the Greek πτερύγιον sometimes to translate the Hebrew word.


“Wing” as in a wing of a bird, or cherub, is an extremity, not a pinnacle.

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:The word ‎שקוץ an object used in the performance of detestable actions, e.g. an idol Dt 29:16(17), Is 66:3, Dn 11:31, 12:11, 2C 15:8

that is what I had in mind

kwrandolph wrote:The word משמם making desolated?

From my Saffa verb table program it's a masc. singular participle, either hifil with a 3mp pronoun suffix or piel
Since it's singular, the subject is כנף.

kwrandolph wrote:Completion, end כלה

Yes. And I don't think that fits the 70 AD destruction because Jerusalem is a vibrant city today.


An end of time period, in this case the 70 sevens.

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:To act decisively, passive ונחרצה
Oppression תתך from the verb תכך ?

I don't see תכך as an option.


Why not? One of the patterns for deriving nouns from verbs is by prefixing a ת

SteveMiller wrote:Saffa shows either from the root נתך (melt or pour out) or from the root נתן (give).
נתך: qal 3fs or 2ms imperfect or hufal 3fs or 2ms imperfect
נתן: qal infinitive with 2ms or 2fs pronoun suffix


The syntax seems to indicate that תתך is a noun.

SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Desolation שמם ?

Just looking at the noun possibilities: qal ms participle, qal infinitive noun with 3mp suffix or piel infinitive noun.
Lam 3:11 he has made me a desolation
Dan 8:13 transgression that desolates
Dan 12:11 abomination that desolates
Seems like it could be either desolation or desolator.

Thanks Karl. It sure is a hard one to translate. That's why it's good to collaborate.


Yes it is a hard one to translate.

Yours, Karl W. Randolph.

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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby Jason Hare » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:28 am

SteveMiller wrote:"after the 62 weeks" does not necessarily mean "totally after" in human language.


I find something perhaps alarming in this. When you say "in human language" are you disqualifying Hebrew as a "human language"? I'm not sure if that's what you mean. Maybe you're just saying "this is how we say things," but it kinda threw me when I read this line. You don't think (as some are prone to do) that Hebrew is actually a language of the divine realm that has been gifted to mankind, do you?

Sorry if this wasn't your intention.

Regards,
Jason
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby Jemoh66 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:24 pm

I tend to agree with Steve on the division of the 70 weeks. I think the text supports this. The NET Bible has what I think a very decent rendering of this passage.

24 “Seventy weeks have been determined

concerning your people and your holy city

to put an end to rebellion,

to bring sin to completion,

to atone for iniquity,

to bring in perpetual righteousness,

to seal up the prophetic vision,

and to anoint a most holy place.

25 So know and understand:

From the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild

Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives,

there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

It will again be built, with plaza and moat,

but in distressful times.

26 Now after the sixty-two weeks,

an anointed one will be cut off and have nothing.

As for the city and the sanctuary,

the people of the coming prince will destroy them.

But his end will come speedily like a flood.

Until the end of the war that has been decreed

there will be destruction.

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one week.

But in the middle of that week

he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt.

On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys,

until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys.”


In verse 24, Gabriel gives a summary statement, much like we've all seen elsewhere in Tanach. We are also told the 70 years have been allotted for a list of issues:
to put an end to rebellion,

to bring sin to completion,

to atone for iniquity,

to bring in perpetual righteousness,

to seal up the prophetic vision,

and to anoint a most holy place.

In verse 25, Gabriel unpacks the 70 weeks. This is supported by the opening phrase, "so know and understand." He follows with "there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks." Why not just say 69. No he divides it purposely to let us know about a 7 week period and a 62 week period. He then ignores the 7 week expressly, letting us know in verse 26 that Messiah (or a messiah) will be cut off after the 62 weeks. Still ignoring the 7 week period, in verse 27 he adds what could be the missing week (since 7 and 62 make 69 not 70): "He will confirm a covenant with many for one week"

I don't pretend to the full interpretation of these words.
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Baptist Bible Theological Seminary

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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby Jemoh66 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:29 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:"after the 62 weeks" does not necessarily mean "totally after" in human language.


I find something perhaps alarming in this. When you say "in human language" are you disqualifying Hebrew as a "human language"? I'm not sure if that's what you mean. Maybe you're just saying "this is how we say things," but it kinda threw me when I read this line. You don't think (as some are prone to do) that Hebrew is actually a language of the divine realm that has been gifted to mankind, do you?

Sorry if this wasn't your intention.

Regards,
Jason


Jason, I think he is just using "human language" to mean natural language. That is, using numbers in a rounding off way, as opposed to an exact way. My mother would often use the term "a couple" but she meant "two or three"
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary

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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:44 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:"after the 62 weeks" does not necessarily mean "totally after" in human language.


I find something perhaps alarming in this. When you say "in human language" are you disqualifying Hebrew as a "human language"? I'm not sure if that's what you mean. Maybe you're just saying "this is how we say things," but it kinda threw me when I read this line. You don't think (as some are prone to do) that Hebrew is actually a language of the divine realm that has been gifted to mankind, do you?

Sorry if this wasn't your intention.

Regards,
Jason

Jason, thanks for asking.
I completely agree with you.
Biblical Hebrew is a human language. Like English. It is not a mathematical language nor a coded language.
In human language, unlike mathematics, when we say "after 3 days" it does not necessarily mean on the 4th day or later. It can mean after the start of the 3rd day, which is what it often means. My point was that we are to understand BH as a human language and not as a mathematical one.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
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Jason Hare
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby Jason Hare » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:46 am

The text does not say "From the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives, there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks." That is simply absurd. Who counts like that?

It says:
From the going-out of a word to rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one, a ruler – seven weeks.
And for sixty-two weeks it shall be rebuilt.

These are two separate periods. Seven weeks until the coming of the anointed one in question. Sixty-two weeks after that for the rebuilding of the city.

That is where you mess-up is coming in reading the text. There is a definite division here. No matter where we start the count, the first "messiah" appears around 49 years after the issuance of the command – not 483 years after the command.

If you're one who gives any attention to the accents written on the verse, notice these ones:

וְתֵדַ֨ע וְתַשְׂכֵּ֜ל מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙ וְלִבְנ֤וֹת יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֨ם֙ עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָֽׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה וְשָֽׁבֻעִ֞ים שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֗יִם תָּשׁוּב֙ וְנִבְנְתָה֙ רְח֣וֹב וְחָר֔וּץ וּבְצ֖וֹק הָֽעִתִּֽים׃

Do you see what's on the number "seven" here: עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָֽׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה ? That's etnachta. It represents a major disjunction in the reading. It separates "seven weeks" very definitively from "sixty-two weeks." Reading it together leads to absurdity. Who in the world would count like that arbitrarily?!

"Hey, man. I'll see you later!"
"Yeah, don't forget: we're meeting in fifteen minutes and seventy-five minutes! See you then!"

No! Everyone would say "we're meeting in an hour and a half" if that's what they meant. There's no reason why Daniel would not write שבועים ששים ותשעה if that's what he had meant. I know that Hebrew numbers are ridiculous with the opposite form matching of masculine and feminine, but give me a break!

(Take this as a lighthearted post, please. But, seriously, no one counts that way.)
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

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SteveMiller
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby SteveMiller » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:59 am

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
In Hebrew that is true almost always only for long numbers, like “one thousand and two hundred and fifty and five” or turned around, where the “and” puts numbers over what would be zeros. Here there are no zeros.

Remind me if there are any exceptions to what I just said.

Can you give me an example where "and" does not mean "plus"?


With the exception of numbers like what I mentioned above, I can’t think of a single example of where “and” = numerical +.

"and" between 2 things is normally additive.
Gen 1:1 heaven and earth
Gen 1:8 evening and morning
Gen 1:11 herb and tree
etc.
There have been some attempts to translate "and" as "even", making the 2 things connected by "and" into the same thing.
An example is Zech 9:9 "upon an ass, even upon a colt" JPS, which is wrong.

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:"after the 62 weeks" does not necessarily mean "totally after" in human language. For example, Jesus said that after 3 days He would rise again (Mar 8:31). But he rose on the 3rd day (Mat 16:21), not on the 4th day. So, "after the 62 weeks" could mean on the last day of the 62 weeks.


Can you give any examples of אחר being used that way in Biblical Hebrew?

It seems Dan 9:26 is the unique place in the Tanach where אחר is used before a number of time units.
To say "after x full years" BH says "years of days" as in 2 Sam 13:23
Or "from the end of x years" as in 2 Sam 15:7
אחר is often used to specify time after an event. i.e. Gen 5:4 and the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were 800 years.
Are we to understand that Adam died exactly 800 years after the birth of Seth? No. But it is not using אחר in the same way. But it is using "years" in a similar way to "weeks".

I have been thinking more about it. It doesn't just say after 62 weeks, but after the 62 weeks. In English, if I say, I will go to college for 4 years. After the four years I will get a job. Does it mean after 4 full years? No, because we understand that a college school year is September to May, which is 3/4 of a year. I don't think Jesus was cut off after the end of the 62nd week, but after most of it.
But maybe he was cut off after the end of the 62nd week. The Jewish year starts at Nisan 1, so the 69th week could have ended at Nisan 1, and Jesus was cut off 14 days later. Those 14 days would still be part of the 70 weeks, so then the final week would be reduced by 14 days.

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:The destruction of the city and sanctuary which follows is totally after the 62 weeks, but before the start of the 70th week. That destruction takes place outside of the 70 weeks.


This is the second time you’ve made this claim. Where does the text back up your claim?

The 69th week ends with the Messiah being cut off in 9:26a.
The 70th week begins in 9:27 with the prince that is to come causing a covenant to prevail to the many for one week.
In between 26a and 27 is 26b, which says the city and sanctuary would be destroyed by the Romans.

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Nowhere in the prophesy does it say that the three subdivisions have to add up to make 70 sevens.

It is what you would expect from v24. And then the 3 numbers of weeks add up to 70. I'll just agree to disagree on this point.


It’s not a necessary expectation from verse 24. But it is a necessary expectation that the 70 sevens remain as a unit—you split it apart. What is the justification for splitting a single unit into two units?

When it says 70 weeks are apportioned as follows, and then it says 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, at least I expect that the 7, 62 and 1 week are the 70 weeks.
Another reason to include the final one week in the 70 weeks is the unusual word "weeks", more literally "sevens" for 7 years.
The use of "one seven" for the final seven years, indicates it is the 70th week.
It never says the 70 weeks are contiguous. The 7 weeks and 62 weeks are contiguous from the text. The lone ‎ שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד bears no such connection to the previous weeks.
Another example is the great image in ch 2. It is one image. There is the Babylonian kingdom symbolized by the gold head, followed by the Persian kingdom symbolized by the silver chest, followed by Greece symbolized by bronze belly and thighs, followed by Rome symbolized by the iron legs, followed by the final kingdom of this age symbolized by the iron and clay feet, followed by the Messiah who comes from heaven and smashes the feet. Today we are not under the Roman empire, nor are we under the final kingdom. So there is a gap there between the legs and the feet. If there is no gap there, then where do you place the present time in that image?

kwrandolph wrote:In fact, the last seven years are not listed as a subdivision of the 70 sevens.

It doesn't say the 7 and 62 weeks are subdivisions of the 70 either, but common sense says they are.
It does deliberately say ‎ שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד, one week. Not just "a" week.
The listing of the last week is different than the previous 2 subdivisions. The previous 2 are contiguous. The last week is not contiguous.

kwrandolph wrote:About halfway through the fourth year, i.e. 3.5 years from the beginning of the war.

The Jewish rebellion started in the fall of 66 AD. The temple was destroyed in July or Aug 70. That is at least 3 years 9 mos.

kwrandolph wrote:What seven year covenant? Where in the text does it say that there was a seven year covenant? What makes you think that there was a seven year covenant? All the text says is that it took seven years to impose a covenant, namely the covenant of Pax Romana.

He caused a covenant to prevail for 7 years. Not it took 7 years to make a covenant prevail.

kwrandolph wrote:Looking at history and the Gospels, in particular Luke who connected Jesus’ life with Roman history, we get the following (remembering that the dates could be a few years off):

Jesus born when Cyrene was on his first time as governor of Syria — 7 BC
Herod the Great died — 4 BC
Romans take away self-rule from Judea fulfilling Genesis 49:10 — 5 AD
Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem after Passover, at 12 years old — 5 AD
Tiberius’ 15th year, start of John the Baptist’s ministry — 20 AD

We don’t have exact years for Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. Jesus was “about 30” when he started his ministry, an exact age was not given. The following is assuming 30 years old at beginning of public ministry:

Start of Jesus’ ministry — 23 AD
Jesus’ crucifixion — 26 AD

Admittedly the dates don’t add up exactly with the prophesy in Daniel, unless after 63 sevens is included in the “after 62 sevens”. But remember, all of these dates are educated guesses, and could be off by two or three years, and within that fuzziness an exact match with Daniel’s prophesy can fit. (I think historians are doing pretty well to get these dates to within two or three years.)
SteveMiller wrote:I thought your interpretation of the 70 weeks does not mention Jesus. Did I misunderstand?


Yes, you misunderstood. I just didn’t push it before.

OK, now I understand you better. you are saying that 8 of the weeks are not mentioned in the details of the 70 weeks.
So your timeline is:
year 0 - Persian king gives the word to restore Jerusalem
year 49 (7 weeks) - Alexander the Great, the messiah prince
year 434 (62 weeks) - completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem?
Messiah cut off some time after year 434 in 26 AD
Destruction of Jerusalem and temple by Romans
year 490 - end of the 70 weeks

Is that right? What is your objection to the one week in v27 being the final week?

kwrandolph wrote:“Wing” as in a wing of a bird, or cherub, is an extremity, not a pinnacle.

If the wings are raised it is a pinnacle. Does extremity of abominations make sense?

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:To act decisively, passive ונחרצה
Oppression תתך from the verb תכך ?

I don't see תכך as an option.


Why not? One of the patterns for deriving nouns from verbs is by prefixing a ת

What I mean is, it doesn't show as an option for תתך in the Saffa verb table program and BibleWorks doesn't find a verb root תכך.
What does תכך mean?

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Saffa shows either from the root נתך (melt or pour out) or from the root נתן (give).
נתך: qal 3fs or 2ms imperfect or hufal 3fs or 2ms imperfect
נתן: qal infinitive with 2ms or 2fs pronoun suffix


The syntax seems to indicate that תתך is a noun.

I took the participle ‎ נֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה as the noun, so תתך would be a verb. But I could see it either way.
If you take תתך as a noun, how would you translate the last clause?

Thanks Karl.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)


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