kwrandolph wrote: SteveMiller wrote:
In Hebrew that is true almost always only for long numbers, like “one thousand and two hundred and fifty and five” or turned around, where the “and” puts numbers over what would be zeros. Here there are no zeros.
Remind me if there are any exceptions to what I just said.
Can you give me an example where "and" does not mean "plus"?
With the exception of numbers like what I mentioned above, I can’t think of a single example of where “and” = numerical +.
"and" between 2 things is normally additive.
Gen 1:1 heaven and earth
Gen 1:8 evening and morning
Gen 1:11 herb and tree
There have been some attempts to translate "and" as "even", making the 2 things connected by "and" into the same thing.
An example is Zech 9:9 "upon an ass, even upon a colt" JPS, which is wrong.
SteveMiller wrote:"after the 62 weeks" does not necessarily mean "totally after" in human language. For example, Jesus said that after 3 days He would rise again (Mar 8:31). But he rose on the 3rd day (Mat 16:21), not on the 4th day. So, "after the 62 weeks" could mean on the last day of the 62 weeks.
Can you give any examples of אחר being used that way in Biblical Hebrew?
It seems Dan 9:26 is the unique place in the Tanach where אחר is used before a number of time units.
To say "after x full years" BH says "years of days" as in 2 Sam 13:23
Or "from the end of x years" as in 2 Sam 15:7
אחר is often used to specify time after an event. i.e. Gen 5:4 and the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were 800 years.
Are we to understand that Adam died exactly 800 years after the birth of Seth? No. But it is not using אחר in the same way. But it is using "years" in a similar way to "weeks".
I have been thinking more about it. It doesn't just say after 62 weeks, but after the
62 weeks. In English, if I say, I will go to college for 4 years. After the
four years I will get a job. Does it mean after 4 full years? No, because we understand that a college school year is September to May, which is 3/4 of a year. I don't think Jesus was cut off after the end of the 62nd week, but after most of it.
But maybe he was cut off after the end of the 62nd week. The Jewish year starts at Nisan 1, so the 69th week could have ended at Nisan 1, and Jesus was cut off 14 days later. Those 14 days would still be part of the 70 weeks, so then the final week would be reduced by 14 days.
SteveMiller wrote:The destruction of the city and sanctuary which follows is totally after the 62 weeks, but before the start of the 70th week. That destruction takes place outside of the 70 weeks.
This is the second time you’ve made this claim. Where does the text back up your claim?
The 69th week ends with the Messiah being cut off in 9:26a.
The 70th week begins in 9:27 with the prince that is to come causing a covenant to prevail to the many for one week.
In between 26a and 27 is 26b, which says the city and sanctuary would be destroyed by the Romans.
kwrandolph wrote: SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Nowhere in the prophesy does it say that the three subdivisions have to add up to make 70 sevens.
It is what you would expect from v24. And then the 3 numbers of weeks add up to 70. I'll just agree to disagree on this point.
It’s not a necessary expectation from verse 24. But it is a necessary expectation that the 70 sevens remain as a unit—you split it apart. What is the justification for splitting a single unit into two units?
When it says 70 weeks are apportioned as follows, and then it says 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, at least I expect that the 7, 62 and 1 week are the 70 weeks.
Another reason to include the final one week in the 70 weeks is the unusual word "weeks", more literally "sevens" for 7 years.
The use of "one seven" for the final seven years, indicates it is the 70th week.
It never says the 70 weeks are contiguous. The 7 weeks and 62 weeks are contiguous from the text. The lone שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד
bears no such connection to the previous weeks.
Another example is the great image in ch 2. It is one image. There is the Babylonian kingdom symbolized by the gold head, followed by the Persian kingdom symbolized by the silver chest, followed by Greece symbolized by bronze belly and thighs, followed by Rome symbolized by the iron legs, followed by the final kingdom of this age symbolized by the iron and clay feet, followed by the Messiah who comes from heaven and smashes the feet. Today we are not under the Roman empire, nor are we under the final kingdom. So there is a gap there between the legs and the feet. If there is no gap there, then where do you place the present time in that image?
kwrandolph wrote:In fact, the last seven years are not listed as a subdivision of the 70 sevens.
It doesn't say the 7 and 62 weeks are subdivisions of the 70 either, but common sense says they are.
It does deliberately say שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד
, one week. Not just "a" week.
The listing of the last week is different than the previous 2 subdivisions. The previous 2 are contiguous. The last week is not contiguous.
kwrandolph wrote:About halfway through the fourth year, i.e. 3.5 years from the beginning of the war.
The Jewish rebellion started in the fall of 66 AD. The temple was destroyed in July or Aug 70. That is at least 3 years 9 mos.
kwrandolph wrote:What seven year covenant? Where in the text does it say that there was a seven year covenant? What makes you think that there was a seven year covenant? All the text says is that it took seven years to impose a covenant, namely the covenant of Pax Romana.
He caused a covenant to prevail for 7 years. Not it took 7 years to make a covenant prevail.
Looking at history and the Gospels, in particular Luke who connected Jesus’ life with Roman history, we get the following (remembering that the dates could be a few years off):
Jesus born when Cyrene was on his first time as governor of Syria — 7 BC
Herod the Great died — 4 BC
Romans take away self-rule from Judea fulfilling Genesis 49:10 — 5 AD
Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem after Passover, at 12 years old — 5 AD
Tiberius’ 15th year, start of John the Baptist’s ministry — 20 AD
We don’t have exact years for Jesus’ ministry and crucifixion. Jesus was “about 30” when he started his ministry, an exact age was not given. The following is assuming 30 years old at beginning of public ministry:
Start of Jesus’ ministry — 23 AD
Jesus’ crucifixion — 26 AD
Admittedly the dates don’t add up exactly with the prophesy in Daniel, unless after 63 sevens is included in the “after 62 sevens”. But remember, all of these dates are educated guesses, and could be off by two or three years, and within that fuzziness an exact match with Daniel’s prophesy can fit. (I think historians are doing pretty well to get these dates to within two or three years.)
SteveMiller wrote:I thought your interpretation of the 70 weeks does not mention Jesus. Did I misunderstand?
Yes, you misunderstood. I just didn’t push it before.
OK, now I understand you better. you are saying that 8 of the weeks are not mentioned in the details of the 70 weeks.
So your timeline is:
year 0 - Persian king gives the word to restore Jerusalem
year 49 (7 weeks) - Alexander the Great, the messiah prince
year 434 (62 weeks) - completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem?
Messiah cut off some time after year 434 in 26 AD
Destruction of Jerusalem and temple by Romans
year 490 - end of the 70 weeks
Is that right? What is your objection to the one week in v27 being the final week?
kwrandolph wrote:“Wing” as in a wing of a bird, or cherub, is an extremity, not a pinnacle.
If the wings are raised it is a pinnacle. Does extremity of abominations make sense?
kwrandolph wrote: SteveMiller wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:To act decisively, passive ונחרצה
Oppression תתך from the verb תכך ?
I don't see תכך as an option.
Why not? One of the patterns for deriving nouns from verbs is by prefixing a ת
What I mean is, it doesn't show as an option for תתך in the Saffa verb table program and BibleWorks doesn't find a verb root תכך.
What does תכך mean?
SteveMiller wrote:Saffa shows either from the root נתך (melt or pour out) or from the root נתן (give).
נתך: qal 3fs or 2ms imperfect or hufal 3fs or 2ms imperfect
נתן: qal infinitive with 2ms or 2fs pronoun suffix
The syntax seems to indicate that תתך is a noun.
I took the participle נֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה as the noun, so תתך would be a verb. But I could see it either way.
If you take תתך as a noun, how would you translate the last clause?