Jason Hare wrote:SteveMiller wrote:
So the Messiah would be cut off after 7 + 62 sevens = 69 sevens = 483 years.
It says that a
מָשִׁיחַ māšîaḥ will be cut off. Is the word māšîaḥ ever used in the Bible to refer to "the Messiah" (capital-M)? Do you not see an issue with translating māšîaḥ here as "the Messiah"?
It could be translated as "an annointed one" or "Messiah". Psalm 2:2 uses the word
מָשִׁיחַ for the Messiah as proven by the rest of the psalm.
Jason Hare wrote:SteveMiller wrote:There are 3 divisions with the seventy sevens: 7, 62 and 1. The seventy sevens is the time apportioned to Israel and Jerusalem. When the Messiah is cut off after 69 sevens, that is a gigantic change and starts the time of the gentiles. When the time of the gentiles is fulfilled, Israel's final seven begins. This gap for the time of the gentiles is in almost every messianic prophesy in the Old Testament.
When the Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. ] I think you mean "when an anointed one is cut off after the sixty-two weeks."
Yes, after 62 weeks which follows the 7 weeks, so the Messiah is cut off after 7 + 62 weeks or after 69 weeks. I was just counting time from year 0.
Jason Hare wrote:It says that there would be seven weeks until the arrive of "an anointed ruler." Then it says that after sixty-two weeks, during which the city would be rebuilt, "an anointed one will be cut off and have naught." These are two different time periods (49 years and 434 years); thus, these are two different anointed ones - one labeled māšîaḥ and another labled māšîaḥ nāḡîḏ, just as the person labled only nāḡîḏ (that is, nāḡîḏ habbāʾ in verse 26) is a different person.
At this point I will try to translate v25:
And know and understand: From the going forth of the word to bring back and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah Prince (or annointed prince) shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks. She shall return and be built, the street and moat, and in troublous times.
As you can see, the way I've translated it, it is 7 + 62 weeks until messiah the prince.
I understand you would translate it something like:
And know and understand: From the going forth of the word to bring back and to rebuild Jerusalem until an annointed prince shall be 7 weeks. And [for] 62 weeks she shall return and be built, the street and moat, and in troublous times.
How you would translate it? Hopefully we can have a lot of discussion on this list how to translate these verses.
I don't know that it is allowed for you to add "for" in there, but it seems to be ok, because I need to add "for" in v27 "for 1 week".
For your view to be true, then Jerusalem would not be returned to the Jews nor being rebuilt in the 49 years. Rebuilding and return would start after the 49 years. Is that a correct representation of your view?
Then I wonder what in your view is the word that was given to return Jerusalem to the Jews and rebuild the city? Who gave it and when?
Jason Hare wrote:Thus, the text has these divisions:
Year 0 - issuance of a word for Jerusalem's rebuilding
Year 49 - arrive of a māšîaḥ nāḡîḏ
Years 50 until 483 - period of the city being rebuilt
After year 483 - death of a māšîaḥ (a different person to above)
Year 483 - confirmation of a treaty
Years 483 until 486.5 - appearance of peace
Year 486.5 - invasion by nāḡîḏ (different to above) and cessation of temple offerings
Year 490 - end of the war and desolation of the city
This is what is laid out in the words of Daniel 9. We must regard the time periods established in the text and not confuse the different periods.
Thank you, Jason. Good brief outline. I will flesh out my view like yours but include the historical fulfillments:
The 70 weeks are the time given to Israel during this age, that is before the millennium.
year 0 - Cyrus gives word to return Jerusalem to the Jews and to rebuild it. rebuilding starts
year 49 - a milestone on the way to year 483. This may be the completion of the Tanach (seal the vision in v24), or it may be the completion of the 2nd Temple (anoint the holy of holies in v24) or both, or the completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
year 483 - Messiah Prince is cut off having nothing when he dies
years 483 - unknown - times of the gentiles. the church age. not included in the time given to Israel. During this time the people of the prince that shall come destroy Jerusalem and the temple, and the end is desolation.
Final week given to Israel:
final week start- prince makes a strong covenant with the majority of Israel
" " + 3.5 years - prince causes the sacrifices to cease. There will be abominations that desolate.
end of final week: desolator is destroyed, millennium begins.
Jason Hare wrote:kwrandolph wrote:Close to half of that prophesy deals with the final seven years in a description that is recognizably the Roman suppression of the Jewish revolt of 66 AD. Assuming that the date of 73 AD (it could be off by a couple of years) is the correct date for the end of the Roman conquest (yes, the Hebrew indicates a conquest) that indicates that the start of the 490 years was 417 BC.
This is certainly the standard Jewish interpretation of the text - and it agrees with the segments of time in the prophecy as I've laid it out above. The problem is that it doesn't agree with the standard chronology and the years allowed in the Persian period, which are more years than allowed in the prophecy. Jewish timetables of this period have fewer years, and they (not surprisingly) agree with the times in Daniel's prophecy. (Perhaps this is by design?)
Thanks for the explanation
Jason Hare wrote:SteveMiller wrote:The 2nd 1/2 of v26 is the Roman destruction of Jerusalem:
26b ... and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary ...
This event is outside of the 70 sevens of time given to Israel because the messiah is cut off after 69 sevens and the 70th seven begins with the start of the next verse.
Again, this is not how the text reads. In fact, it could be that the
anointed one that is here cut off is the high priest at the time of the besiege of Jerusalem, who was removed from power and killed (IIRC).
I don't think a high priest is ever referred to as
מְשִׁ֣יחַ. They are anointed, and are called
הַכֹּהֵ֧ן הַמָּשִׁ֛יחַ, not
maschiach alone.
Jason Hare wrote:SteveMiller wrote:I do not think that v27 fits the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. v27 takes place after v26 because it starts with a waw-consecutive.
I don't think we should be talking of vav-consecutives in prophetic text. This isn't narrative. It's not exactly applicable.
I think we follow the same grammar rules for prophesy as for prose. There are some differences. Prophesy is often given as a riddle, so the prediction might not be not stated in a straightforward way.
Jason Hare wrote:SteveMiller wrote:The temple has been rebuilt in v27 because sacrifices are being offered for the first 1/2 of the seven years.
How can you make v27 fit the Roman destruction of Jerusalem?
Desolation poured out on the city. Cessation of the temple offerings. There aren't a lot of details in the passage, but they certainly match what we know about what happened at the destruction of Jerusalem. What do you think
doesn't match?
I don't know much on the history at 70 AD. I was hoping someone would tell how v27 fits what happened then, and I could check it out. But since you ask, here's what I think: (& thanks for asking)
I don't think there was a strong 7 year covenant.
The sacrifices were not stopped in the midst of a 7 year covenant.
The sacrifices were stopped because the temple was destroyed. v27 sounds like the temple is still standing, and the sacrifices were stopped and replaced with abominations.
The desolator was not destroyed
Jason Hare wrote:If we're giving our opinions on this chapter, I guess I may as well join in.
thank you. I appreciate that you shared them.